Conversation
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Trump wants Mexico to take back non-Mexicans that come into the US through the south border. Mexico: uh, no.
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@verius If you have someone in your country that got there illegally, you ask what their country is and send them there. If they refuse or the country doesn't want them back, you make a raft, load it on a boat, and leave the guy on it on international waters.
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@verius Eh, there's always execution or forced labour.
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@verius Define "unsafe country"
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@nerthos I think you'd break a few treaties doing that though, as well as suffer a PR nightmare.
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@nerthos Oh and people always say they're from a known unsafe country.
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@nerthos I would define an country being unsafe for a person if the person would have a substantial chance of (A) suffering torture, degrading or inhuman treatment (i.e. torture, rape or other forms of abuse), (B) persecution (note: that's not the same as prosecution) or (C) suffering from violence (i.e. being killed or maimed) either specifically aimed at them or because of an active violent conflict in the area the person would be returned to.
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@nerthos Killing people for simply being in your country. It's debatable (and actually actively debated in NL) whether being illegal should be a criminal act. However I think I doubt there's any serious debate that the death penalty for people who have entered the country illegally is a too severe penalty.
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@verius Well, I would consider the guilt to fall on the country where the illegal belongs for not taking the offender back. A country should not be expected to allow someone to be in there if they haven't entered legally, so they should have the right to dispose of the offender by ideally deportation, but other means if that's not possible.
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@verius I'd consider it reasonable to provide assylum if the person can prove they come from the country in question and applies to it properly, but if they're lying then lol ditch
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@nerthos There's a naturalization process for people who came illegally to the States but want to become legal, but it involves paying fees and in general repaying their debt to that society and people don't like that - they want to have their cake and eat it too.
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@maiyannah Well that's fine. If the country is willing to offer such a chance out of generosity, then they can take that option. But I don't think a country should be forced to offer it, nor that any sanctions would be fair upon a country that decides to simply get rid of trespassers.
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@nerthos The reason I mention this is because people make it out like they HAVE to be in the US illegally, that they'd be sent off to some backwater in Azerbaijan if they fess up.
There is a process there for just these cases - they just choose not to use it. Which, in my opinion, is one more reason they should be deported. -
@gameragodzilla Eh, I endorse zero tolerance.
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@gameragodzilla @nerthos Well, to use one example, the chineese people who were smuggled here in that operation the Navy busted that I talked about previously thought they were paying someone to help them move to Canada, they didn't *know* they were entering illegally, they thought it was above board. So that's why we designed a process to vet and process them. Given the chance, those kind of people would likely have chosen to have entered legally if they knew that they were entering illegally, and those aren't the people we should be punishing, really. It should be the ones that intentionally and willfully enter illegally.
Likewise Im sure this happens a lot with middle-eastern countries to both here and the US. The human smuggling industry is HUGE in those kinds of war-or-communism-torn countries. -
@gameragodzilla @nerthos Agreed.
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@nerthos That's basically how it works in NL. Though Amnesty and the likes give us a lot of flack for locking up people we cannot yet expel but that have been judged to have no right to be here.
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