Conversation
Notices
-
How many unreasonable demands can you count from feminists? What are they?
I'll start with these...
--> Men should squish their balls together when sitting down on public transport because manspreading makes feminists uncomfortable. Boohoo.
--> We should shut down any discussion on male rights because feminists don't like opposing viewpoints-I mean, those MRAs, MGTOWs, etc. are sexists and misogynists!
--> All men are potential rapists. Teach men not to rape! The reason that men are raping is clearly because nobody told them not to, because they don't know it is wrong.
--> Listen and believe all women when they report rape cases. Even when the woman lied, the man should be glad and take his punishment like a good boy, because it brings awareness to rape and helps women!- dolus repeated this.
-
@sim Don't bother making a list because you'll die of old age without ever finishing it.
-
@nerthos
Good point... there is probably a better list too. Lol. -
@tiffany She's saying that anyone who does it already knows it's a crime and it's bad, so telling them something they already know won't do much.
-
@nerthos If it stops one person from being raped then it's worth doing
-
@tiffany
I'm saying that it is unreasonable to claim that all men are potential rapists, and the reason they are raping is because they haven't been taught not to. Rapists already know that rape is wrong, and they do it anyway... whether you attempt to teach them or not. Not every man is a rapist. So what good does treating all men like they are rapists who need education do? -
@tiffany Hey, I'm all in for stopping crime, but right now it's just an annoyance for people who won't do it anyway, and completely irrelevant for criminals that intended to.
-
@tiffany You just made me realize how fragile a cultural society can be. When people claim "if it stops one person from being raped then it is worth doing" and a counter arguement is presented in the form of "being condescending to 50%~ of the population can never actually be a good thing"
-
@nerthos I'm sorry that people are upset that we want rape to stop happening
-
@sim The only "good" it does is making people disregard real cases thinking it's just another boy crying wolf. As a man who would not have sex outside of a relationship, feminists doing that just makes me not give a crap about them.
-
@tiffany There are better alternatives to actual problems that do not require spouting of things that are obvious from rooftops.
It would be like trying to convince people god is real by handing out free bibles in a church. -
@tiffany You are completely missing the point. Everyone except criminals wants rape to stop happening, but accusing innocents of being potential rapists, and convincing women to mistrust every male they come across doesn't reduce rape. I'm pretty sure it'll only increase the chances of an actual rapist getting away because people will think that it's just another innocent being accused of something they didn't do. And that's without even touching the issue of male rape victims.
Cloud Kicker likes this. -
@sim Sure, people who set out to be rapists probably won't be deterred, but for those who think they aren't doing anything wrong when they aggressively persue a woman, even if there's a chance of stopping them from doing something horrible, surely that's worth a modicum of "don't rape people" talk
-
@nerthos
Yeah. We need to strike a balance here... we shouldn't treat every man like a rapist, but still protect ourselves from the men and women who will rape us. If he shows himself to be a rapist/abusive, then you treat him like one of those. If not, then you don't treat him like one.
It sucks that we have false rape cases too... an innocent man has his life tossed upside down, and the women usually don't have legal consequences for this. It's also bad for the legitimate cases. It is an injustice for the accused and the real rape victims. -
@nerthos It's not like I agree with the radical feminists who support that kind of thing. All I'm saying is that saying "hey, kids, this is what you can't do" is either helpful to people or at the very worst, innocuous. The arguments that you shouldn't teach kids ANYTHING on the off-chance that not every kid needed a lesson in legality are what I take issue with
-
@critialcloudkicker You say "things that are obvious" but rape still happens
-
@tiffany I'm not arguing that. That's completely fine, what's not fine is how it turns into a witch hunt and alienates an entire gender from the other.
-
@tiffany To me, and to anyone I know, it is obvious that if I break your arm I will spend a nice time talking to some form of law-enforcement. Isn't this the case for some people you know ?
-
@sim False accusations of any kind taken to a legal level should be treated as a really severe crime. Five years of prison and up, not just a fine, because it does exactly that. And people will always be naturally sympathizing towards someone they identify with. If a man knows another man who was falsely accused and had his life ruined, when he sees another man being accused he'll instinctively sympathize with this man, regardless of whether the accusation is true or not, unless overwhelming evidence is presented from the start.
-
@nerthos Too many people construct their arguments "against" feminism around the radical feminists, who I agree shouldn't be supported. It's generalising one group because you don't like having your group generalised
-
@critialcloudkicker He's talking about stuff like inebriated sex rather than forceful intercourse at gunpoint
-
@critialcloudkicker Well, yeah. Some people still try and defend rape (look into the case of Brock Turner where his dad wrote a letter saying "Oh it was all one big jape!!")
-
@tiffany
I'm not sure how one aggressively pursues a woman, but I don't think that counts as being a rapist. But yes, you can tell that guy not to stalk or rape you, maybe even educate him for future reference.
But again, this isn't a fix for rape cases like feminists advocate for. It's not a rape deterrent. It assumes that men in general aren't educated about it, and I think that is wrong. -
@tiffany And this is exactly the reason why I'm against the whole thing. It causes this very situation, as people will fight fire with fire when there shouldn't be a fight in the first place. Unwarranted hostility fosters a similar response. What I'd like to avoid is people having to generalize to defend themselves from generalization.
-
@nerthos Then help out by basing your arguments around the middle ground of feminism and not the man-haters who nobody worth arguing with is arguing about. And I'm not trying to be hostile when I say that, it would be better for us both if we were discussing the same point on the liberation spectrum
-
@nerthos
That is if he recognises it was a false charge and agrees with it. But I do agree with you there, he would sympathise. There does need to be a better consequence than a fine, yeah. It should be a crime. -
@nerthos Same logic should apply. If I spike your drink I know I can expect that I will be in trouble when I am caught.
Alcohol however is a totally different beast, since it is legal. However can you really withdraw consent after the fact of having sex and then ruin someone's life with what you did ? -
@tiffany Good enough for me. I tend to jump out on these things when it involves people like you, as I consider you a genuinely good person and want to make sure you're not going down the SJW line. Too many good people get dragged into something really bad out of good intentions. But yeah I'm perfectly ok with making blurry consent frowned upon, though I'm also wary of how it can easily go the other way when things like consent cards are needed (it's an actual thing, some soldiers carry them as a CYA measure, to avoid false rape accusations, so we're already going off in an opposite bad direction)
-
@critialcloudkicker Absolutely not, and that's one of the things I'm against of the whole "rape awareness" campaign. If you get drunk on your own and make a mistake, you have to live with it, and not chicken out because something happened that you don't like. Everyone needs to be responsible for their own actions. Consent cannot be removed once the act is done, and people should learn to live with it. It's the same as hiring someone to do something, and once the job is done demanding the money back because you changed your mind. When you're over 10 years old, you shouldn't be allowed to do that.
-
@sim @nerthos I was always taught to respect women,from a very early age. And that code of conduct has not changed within me. If I happen to be at a dinner and not knowing any of the individuals there,and the conversation starts to turn into a "which gender is better" I will generally excuse myself from the table. Why? Because it is a no win situation,and generally deteriorates into bullpapaya. So yeah,I avoid it like the FrankerZing plague.
-
@tiffany I'll have to read up on that case before I can make any real statements on what I think about it. However what I can say something about is the punishment. The prosecutors asked for 6 years ( in line with the 2 year minimum guideline ) which was not met by a long shot. Why was it only 6 months ? partially because someone believed someone's side of the story. And well, some big names probably have something to do with it ( Thomas Kennedy; Daryl Hunt; Brian Banks; Connor Obers; Kevin Parisi; The Scotborough boys; Phi Kapps Psi, and some lacrosse team ), which do colour the landscape quite a bit. I am of the belief that if you were to actually punish those who make a false rape claim the number of cases would go down, and the justice being served would go up. As it stands right now there is a hate mob that refuses to cooperate on anything except outrage, I'd argue that I would rather move forward rather than rage at something like "teach men not to rape" campaigns
-
@pennyfortheguy @nerthos
It is pointless. No gender is better than the other. It's the individuals that matter. Even there, who cares if someone is better than someone else? What matters is bettering yourself by your own standards, compare yourself to yourself. If you focus on yourself, and what principles you want which you set out to achieve... you can discard any envy, bitterness or jealousy you may feel if you compared yourself to other people. There are better ways to live than that. -
-
@nerthos I do not think you are allowed to do that when you are younger than 10 years old either. However you can get away with it because your parents are protecting you ( being legally liable for anything younger children do is pretty much an universal part of the law in the developed word, if not worldwide ). That said, yes, everyone at one point or another becomes 100% responsible for their own actions. If you endulge yourself in your own intoxication by use of drugs or alcohol and then find out you have permanently scarred yourself ( mentally or physically, or both if you got fancy ) you have noone to blame but your own endulgenance in your own intoxication.
But this does not take away that I would like to blame someone else, and herein lies the problem. Because I can without facing ( any/much ) repercussions, I most likely will blame someone else. -
@critialcloudkicker @nerthos Psychopaths will violently rape you.and Sociopaths will charm you first,then rape you. Best plan of action when going out with the gals,or the boys. Have not one,but two dedicated "sober beings" as back-up. It works. I have seen it in action.Everyone gets home safely.
-
@critialcloudkicker I noticed I used the "I" form in that last part a bit too presumptuously. Allow me to explain. About 10 years ago I was in a hospital, with a cluster-headache attack. Eventually the staffers decided to give me a really strong painkiller, but I had to be admitted. After like 30 minutes after getting the painkiller ( Deramol ? Demerol ? ) I did not feel anything except the buzzing noize in my head. Also I had to go to the toilet, so I got out, stepped on a thumbtack or 3, did my thing, and got back in bed. I lost all feelings in my pinkietoe after it got infected not much after.
-
@pennyfortheguy Here in the Netherlands we have something called "bob" ( Have a nice commercial which I'm sure you can understand without speaking Dutch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_C7AhWPxxU ). Which is mostly if not only motivated around driving home safely. And yes, it works. However it would also work as a Psychopath and Sociopath detergent. The only problem is, how are you going to find your "bob" ? Finding one person who is willing to order "cassis" instead of beer ( as in that commercial, since it is a softdrink http://www.2twintig.nl/beeldbank/HERO/images/Cassis_Original_33cl_K.jpg ) is hard. Finding 2 people who are willing to actually do so, wow, then charisma really is your dumpstat.
pennyfortheguy likes this. -
@critialcloudkicker Yeah,that would have been Meperidine (Braand name Demerol) Pretty strong stuff.It will definitely make you really drowsy.On an added note: Pretty sloppy of the hospital staff to leave thumb tacks lying around on the floor.
-
@critialcloudkicker Thanks for this.Giving it a watch now.As for the "dedicated sober ones to look after people" Good friends will do this without asking.As in .. Taking turns at being the "protectors" And if they won't help. Well,they wouldn't be considered real friends,now would they ;-)
-
@pennyfortheguy I might have banged my head up against the corkboard trying to catch some Z's. Which would make me even more liable for eventually losing feeling in my pinkietoe permanently, but only if that was the cause for them thumbtacks being on the floor in the first place. Regardles. though, these days 99% of all hospitals have non-metal thumbtacks or a whiteboard with magnets. So I probably wasn't the only one who ever had a problem like this.
Those non-metal thumbtacks are a nightmare to get any get well card on the corkboard though, but at least it is impossible to self-impale yourself with those things. Though I would arguably choose to walk on Lego's if I had to choose, not that there is much difference really.pennyfortheguy likes this. -
@critialcloudkicker @pennyfortheguy
I don't drink alcohol anyways, so I guess I'd be that sober friend. Haha. I just don't think I'd be able to protect my drunk friends, and I can't drive them home. So I'd be useless. -
@pennyfortheguy Well, that is a real problem these days. What are your real friends ? All I know is that I deliberately have no Facebook account. Or at least anymore since the only alias FB account I had is lost in administrative limbo. And that people who do have a REAL hard time distinguishing friends from foes in real life. It might honestly be cherrying up our sense of community on a society-wide scale... Ofcourse it is at least manageable when you're all coming from the same "sector". Like knowing eachother from work, or carpentry class, or community service... And saying that made me realize, most of my friends actually come from those area's
pennyfortheguy and eris like this. -
@sim @critialcloudkicker Just being there for them,means a hell of a lot,and says a great deal about you,when one demonstrates traits on unselfishness,my friend.
-
@pennyfortheguy @critialcloudkicker
Well, it wouldn't be selfless for me. But I can definitely be there even if there isn't much I can actually do when such an event occurs.
