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@rotation YES YES YES
Friday, 21-Dec-12 18:29:50 UTC from web-
SO HOW ABOUT THOSE HORSES.
derps likes this. -
@ceruleanspark Taking mt lines...
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@ceruleanspark Related, yet unrelated, {ti xirma} is lojban for {This is a horse/equine/[colt/mare/stallion/pony]}
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@omni Was this langue created exclusively to make use of "Underused sounds/letters" or something
RedEnchilada (notice the lack of a space) likes this. -
@ceruleanspark Actually not. It was made for "unambigious communication which can easily be parsed by computers". I can give you another sentence, which will show that is probably isn't all that bad: {mi gleki lo su'u do tavla mi kei ku} which parses as {[1(2[gleki1 (happy thing(s)) :] mi I, me)2 [is, does] «3gleki being happy»3 (4[gleki2 (subject(s) of happiness) :] lo any/some <5su'u abstract nature of [6(7[tavla1 (talk-er(s)) :] do you)7 [is, does] «8tavla talk-ing»8 (9[tavla2 (talked to thing(s)) :] mi I, me)9]6 kei >5 ku )4]1} (I'm happy about the fact that you're talking to me).
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@omni Where is the need for such complexity.
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@ceruleanspark On a related note: lojban does not have all letters of the latin alphabet. It's missing the following letters h, q and w.
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@nerthos This apparent complexity is probably caused by the reduced dependency on context based semantics.
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@omni Why. If I was gonna drop letters, I'd probably get rid of C, K, Q or X. Three of them make basically the same sound and X is just useless
RedEnchilada (notice the lack of a space) likes this. -
@kamikaze Yeah, probably. I'm still opposed to the widespread use of a language such as that one.
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@nerthos Lojban is a language which really focuses on structures and conversion. {su'u} shows the beginning of a "subsentence", which ends with {kei}. {lo} converts the selbri {tavla} to a sumti, and {ku} ends this conversion. The conversion is necessary because you can only have one selbri per sentence (similar to the English language, albeit I can't think of an example right now). It sounds complicated, but one you go through the tutorial a bit, it'll actually be quite logical: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/wavelessonscontinued
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@ceruleanspark Lojban is a phonetic language, and those letters actually sound different from how they sound in the English language. "c" is pronounced as "sh" in "shop", "k" is pronounced as "c" in "cut" and "x" is pronounced as "ch" in "Bach". Q was a letter they found too ambiguous to choose a sound for, so that letter died off.
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@omni It's like coding your speech. And unnecesarily restrictive. Useless for anyone without an speech impediment.
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@nerthos English is very difficult for the reasons that make it so successful as a lingua franka. A beginner can already communicate a lot, with very simple, short sentences. However English is a very idiomatic language, it is influenced by hundreds of cultures, due to the history of the UK, its colonial history and the immigration rate of the US. Thus you can convey a superset of the concepts conveyable in many other languages. The downside is that everything you say is strongly context sensitive and requires a certain cultural background to be understood the way it was intended. TL;DR The semantics are a nightmare.
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@nerthos It's similar to coding your speech, yes, but this is important to prevent misunderstandings caused by being multiple ways to "decode" a sentence in most normal languages, and this also simplifies letting computers parse it. I know it seems restrictive, but I've learned enough to know there are generally a lot of different ways you can say the same thing, and there are special words which are broader, if you need to say "flying object" instead of a special kind of bird if something just flew by you, this is easily possible. I understand your concerns, though, but I haven't actually done enough lessons yet to be able to give a good reply as to why something is this way.
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@kamikaze That's exactly what makes the languag nice.
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@thatonestocking I don't know how similar they are grammatically (I believe not that much, because lojban is made to be more culture-neutral), but there are some similarities in their goals (or so I've been told).
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@omni It's made to completely avoid misunderstandings. As such, it's a boring language.
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@nerthos It makes it fun (as in poetic and playful) and easy to speak. It also makes it very difficult to understand.
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@kamikaze Exactly. And in doing so, it forces you to learn more about it's intrincacies, different cultures, and a lot of other things. Once you learn enough, you're able to say lots of things in the same sentence, and at the same time deliberately hide meanings to the listener.
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@nerthos It is not made to be fun
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@omni It's made for people who have a hard time thinking like a human.
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@nerthos Good, because I could never learn another language.
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@greenenchilada That's because you aren't very bright.
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@nerthos Aware. I'm failing my Spanish, which is probably on of the easiest languages.
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@greenenchilada Pretty much the opposite. It's fairly complex.
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@nerthos you don't have to convince me, I'm a huge fan of the language. There are a lot of things I can think and say in English that I wouldn't be able to in my native language. Yet no matter how proficient I am (and my English vocabulary is likely as huge as my German vocabulary), I never seem to run out of things I need to learn about it.
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@kamikaze s/huge/vast/
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@kamikaze Yup. That's why I reject the idea of a logical language. It would just kill all the fun of speech. I can only think of it being succefully used in a professional enviorment.
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@nerthos These teachers lie to me.
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@nerthos It's not part of the mission statement, and enough humans make mistakes when trying to understand sentences of natural languages. Also, a lot of sentences are not logical at all ("I ain't afraid of no ghosts" should be a good example). The argument you put forward is a risky one, though, as it can only really be dismissed from either side with a personal attack.
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@omni Would I be able to pull such a tricky argument in Lojban?
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@greenenchilada Teachers do that all of the time, out of ignorance, laziness, or both.
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@nerthos That is probably it considering the school. What's an easier language for you then?
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@greenenchilada Japanese is an easy one. But the archaic ideogram-based witing ruins it.
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@nerthos *writing
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@nerthos it is not as hard as it looks like, at leas the first dozens of kanji i know are not so complicated
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@nerthos I never understand how anyone could think any language in Asia is easy.
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@greenenchilada Japanese is a semantic paradise.
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@greenenchilada Japanese is silly and the pronuciations make sense, different from the other 2 languages i know
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@nerthos You can say "It's made for people who have a hard time thinking like a human." in lojban. The grammatical structure of that is far beyond what I've learned so far, though. I should've spend more than an hour or four on a language, but I think I got pretty far in a relatively short time (8 of the 28 lessons).
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@mushi Ideograms are not hard, they are stupid. I don't even know why they use it, having hiragana and katakana, or even romanji.
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@nerthos from what i know, it is was useful when then did not separate the words, but now it is silly indeed
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@omni I remain unconvinced of the usefulness of such a language outside basic, direct exchangements of information.
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@nerthos Eh. It looks easier to pronounce than Spanish at least.
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@mushi So, as I said, archaic.
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@nerthos It has its pros and cons. It is harder to make word jokes in it, due to the lower ambiguity, so I can surely understand that would be an argument against it (though, in some times, that would surely be a pro).
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@greenenchilada You think Spanish is hard to pronounce because you're used to a language with overly complicated pronunciation.
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@omni Ambiguity is a key feature in areas such as law.
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@nerthos they should creat new words, having the same word for clod and spider, for she and girlfrien, for bridge and eating sticks may get confusing
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@nerthos Which is why our patent system is such a mess =/
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@nerthos I'm pretty good at pronouncing Spanish words.
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@nerthos We americans speak the american language only.
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@anarchycarcino I don't doubt that.
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@greenenchilada That's because you suck.
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@nerthos Thumbs up.
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@greenenchilada Yo y u no clean da dishes now brah? Da kitchn iz drty!
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@nerthos AMERICA, grapesER
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@greenenchilada Let me present a compelling argument, good sir. http://ur1.ca/c5xtw
finnishguy likes this. -
@nerthos it was a wild night man,
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ok, this linguístic stuff is cool, but imma empity my brain with videogames. byebey
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@greenenchilada Canada's yo daddy
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@mushi no, mushi, do not use ´
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@nerthos We stay our distance from that stalker. It's why we don't legalize gay marriage, becuase he keeps pushing us about it.
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@greenenchilada Memories of that night will haunt your manhood forever.
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@nerthos We were drunk.
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@greenenchilada Your butt will never be the same.
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@nerthos It wasn't my fault.
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@greenenchilada You were part of it anyway.
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@nerthos I deny everything.
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@greenenchilada Geography doesn't lie.
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@nerthos EVERYTHING.
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@greenenchilada You are no true man.
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@nerthos LIES
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@greenenchilada TRUTHS
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@nerthos NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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@greenenchilada HAHAHAHA, SUFFER
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@nerthos I have suffered things no country should have to suffer.
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@greenenchilada The fault was only yours.
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@nerthos I didn't ask for this.
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@greenenchilada You still did it.
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@nerthos I said no.
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@greenenchilada And I have pics that prove you wrong.
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@nerthos No.
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@rotation I LOVE HORSES, THEY'RE MY FRIENDS
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