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@widget Or we could get rid of guns altogether. Gun training will help both those that will use the weapon well and help those who will abuse it. I therefore don't think gun training is a good solution.
Monday, 17-Dec-12 16:12:46 UTC from web-
Oh lord. The kid in front of me is coming with conspiracy theories about Obama orchestrating the shooting. Dumbass.
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@zeldatra I don't see any direct or indirect gains for Obama, so I can't see good grounds for it to be a conspiracy, but I'd still like to hear his arguments.
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@zeldatra Wow! Just wow!
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@zeldatra On the one hoof, that does make some sense, on the other hoof, I find that argument to be a bit weak and I don't expect this incident to change a lot of the opinion of Americans regarding gun control (in fact, I've heard opinions about "giving teachers guns to protect the class").
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@zeldatra Which will lose the Democrats any hope they ever have of winning another election. There's a reason politicos refer to gun control laws as "The third rail", because touching them kills you.
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@zeldatra Except the military and police force, obviously. Why can't that be a gray area? That behaviour seems to be working fine here.
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@widget I meant for civilians, of course, not for the military and police forces (even though I would prefer there to be no military, but I know that's only possible in a fantasy world seeing the current state of the world).
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@toksyuryel I have no clue what it's like in Sweden. Could I get some explanation?
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@zeldatra Seeing how you react, and how I thought my reply was an appropriate reply to explain there is a gray area, I think I don't.
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@omni Citizens are required to own at least one gun and receive mandatory training. Gun crime is almost non-existent.
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@widget That is true, but there are some people who would normally not have criminal tendencies, but can be somewhat dangerous due to mental issues. Giving everyone a gun makes it more likely for those people to accidentally "pull the trigger" (both figuratively and literally).
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@widget Well, that sounds pretty terrible. I don't want to live in Sweden then, I don't want a gun.
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@widget @omni @toksyuryel Whoops I didn't mean Sweden, I meant Switzerland. Why do I always mix those places up.
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@widget That's all nice and dandy, but I don't trust myself with a gun, just like I don't trust myself with a knife.
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@omni It's part of their compulsory military service, which getting out of is (by design) very difficult
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@ceruleanspark I suddenly like my country even more than I used to like it. Ugh, military service. I would go insane on day one, most likely. Well, more insane than I already am.
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@omni In this hypothetical alternate reality where you've had the training, you'd probably trust yourself with one, having had instructions on their safe storage and operation.
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@omni When does Switzerland ever actually *use* its military?
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@ceruleanspark I'm lucky to be excused of our compulsory military service for health reasons. :)
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@ceruleanspark I'm pretty sure I've had training about how to safely use a knife and store it as well. That doesn't mean I feel safe with it. I can be quite a danger, mostly to myself, when mentally unstable.
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@toksyuryel WHEN THE CONSPIRATORS THAT CONTROL THE INTERNATIONAL BANKING SYSTEM DEMAND IT.
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@omni Getting rid of guns would only make organized crime far more dangerous. If only the miltary and police haveguns, any idiot who manages to get one by smuggling or black market would instantly become a major threat to everyone. Guns are not bad at all. Idiots who can't keep themselves out of crim are the problem. If everybody has a gun, and is traind in it's use, criminals will think twice before shooting, since they'll know everybody could be carrying one and return fire. Therefore, required training and gun ownership is good.
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@nerthos This argument comes up all the time and just isn't borne out by statistics. Posession of firearms in britain is crazy restricted and the percentage of crimes involving any type of firearm, even replicas is low. Looking at just murder stats, 6% of all murders in england and wales involve a firearm, compared to 60% in the united states. If reality worked the way that argument does, those numbers would be reversed. Numbers here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
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@widget Except that the united states has both more people in prison than most countries have citizens and the highest rate of legal firearm ownership in the world.
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@ceruleanspark I wasn't talking about numbers. My argument is that you can defend yourself against a knife without having one, but you can't defend yourself against a gun without one unless the guy who's wielding it is an idiot. Gun crime will obviously drop, replaced by other types of crime, but the possibility of defending oneself will not be there.
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@ceruleanspark Also USA is a crime paradise due to it's culture, so comparing it to the UK is kind of pointless.
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@nerthos If someone comes after you with a knife the only sensible thing is to run. Everything else is self deluded hollywood action.
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@kamikaze If someone enters my house with a knife, I put a sword in his chest. It's a matter of range of the weapon. My dai-katana is 1.20m long, I can pierce the guy before he's close enough to harm me. I can also use a spear.
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@nerthos I believe you were proposing an unarmed scenario.
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@kamikaze In an unarmed scenario, I'll avoid the guy until I can locate something to kill him with.
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@nerthos in other words you'd do the sensible thing and run.
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@kamikaze Yup. There's no point in risking a wound. That doesn't change the fact that you can survive far more easily than against a guy with a gun, since the knife has a really limited range.
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