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Trigger warning: strong opinion about a sensitive issue
Friday, 04-Oct-13 01:59:56 UTC from web-
@rarity In the current situation, it is to be assumed that they'll shoot her if she tries to ram her way into the white house
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:02:59 UTC from web-
@nerthos @mrmattimation because car accidents don't happen?
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:04:45 UTC from web-
@rarity She crashed against the gates of the seat of power of a country in fear of terrorism during the peak of unrest, and then fleed. If she stopped the car and left it, she may have survived.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:07:04 UTC from web-
@nerthos Lethal force without evidence of sufficient threat is absolutely not okay, regardless of the situation. And like I said to zeldatra, they didn't even shoot her until she fled.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:12:15 UTC from web
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Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:08:21 UTC from web
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@mrmattimation she got surrounded by people with guns, many of whom were NOT in uniform. I think she can be forgiven for panicking. Anyway, they didn't shoot her until she tried to flee. Why couldn't they shoot her tires? Why would they go straight to kill, whenever they have absolutely no evidence she has ANY malicious intent? She had no weapons. Where was the reason for lethal force?
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:10:39 UTC from web-
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:12:07 UTC from web
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@rarity Rationalize the situation. You apparently are not seeing the intent of the woman. She tried to kill herself and her son or whoever was in the car with her. She wanted to get killed.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:12:11 UTC from web-
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:13:06 UTC from web
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@rarity I have an utter indiference, which allows me to make an unbiaised appraisal of the situation. Why would she carry the kid in the car otherwise?
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:14:22 UTC from web-
@nerthos because she accidentally ended up in that situation? Where is the proof that she had malicious intent? And regardless, her intent, the polices intent, they don't matter when next to the facts. The facts are, the police shot an unarmed woman with no evidence to validate the action.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:17:05 UTC from web-
@rarity If she's suspected of terrorist intent and is carrying a child, it's normal for the police to assume it's a hostage and not shooting her could potentially risk the child's life.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:18:50 UTC from web-
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:19:47 UTC from web
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@nerthos I feel like the fact that she was suspected of terrorist intent at all is flawed, but that's probably just my opinion. I've been to the exact area where this situation happened. It's right on a main road. Why did they ignore the possibility it was a woman losing control of her car?
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:22:19 UTC from web-
@rarity A cop must prioritize the lives of many and of the innocent over that of a suspect, so I consider it was justified to shoot her if she's fleeing after such an action if no more information is available. I would have gone for a lung, yeah, but if there's no chance of having a clear shot then aiming to the head, a lethal and in a car unprotected area, is a logical approach.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:26:17 UTC from web-
@nerthos Well, I don't believe that lethal force is the best way to deal with lack of information, so there we are different.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:28:19 UTC from web-
@rarity Lethal force is the way to deal with lack of information if it's a life or death situation.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:29:15 UTC from web-
@nerthos but there was no evidence at any point that this was a life or death situation. A lady crashed her car, and then drove away. The worst she deserved was felony fleeing and evading for driving away in panic. This is more of an opinion thing, but I'm curious as to what you think. If this woman is proven to be 100% innocent, would you agree that the higher up who gave the order for lethal force deserves some sort of reprimand at least?
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:32:12 UTC from web-
@rarity No. You're not a cop, and have strong feelings regarding life and lethal force, so you won't understand it. While I am not a cop either, I've read and studied about many of these things, and my lack of empathy towards people that might be posing a risk to others lets me decide based solely on risks and probable outcomes. The higher up had to decide between taking one life or potentially taking many. The worst case scenario if he chooses to give the fire order is one life lost. The worst case scenario if he orders the opposite is the loss of many lives and widespread panic due to a terrorist attack while the government is absent. If that happens that officer is directly responsible for everything. As Awl said, he being the only one among us who has the training and has been in such a situation, if you take up the job you must make decisions, and those decisions must be based not in your feelings but in the potential outcomes, seeking the lesser bloodshed in them.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:40:36 UTC from web-
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:44:00 UTC from web
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@rarity Not shooting and allowing many more to suffer and/or die would be wronger
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:44:34 UTC from web
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@rarity I can't believe I'm saying this, but congratulations. I think you might be the first person to ever actually convince me that my view might not be the right one.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:19:18 UTC from web-
@mrmattimation thanks and you're welcome, I guess?
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:22:30 UTC from web
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@rarity Nowadays suspicion of intent = reason for lethal force. Not saying it's all ok, but that's what happens when terrorism rears it's ugly head for all the world to see.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:12:22 UTC from web-
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:12:53 UTC from web
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@rarity The problem is with more and more people seeing it as ok, the less of an excuse it becomes in reality and more a reason. It's about perspective, and probably my mis-use of a word. I worry for the time that things like blowing up grandmothers under suspicion of intent is considered ok in this country.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:15:23 UTC from web-
@awlpony She's cooking anthrax cookies to kill the president!
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:16:31 UTC from web-
@nerthos Although this comment wins me over, I was more relaying to a story I was told about Israeli guards at a Palestenian checkpoint throwing a couple grenades at an old Arab woman because she refused to follow their orders.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:18:19 UTC from web-
@awlpony Well, Israel is Israel. An Israeli guard shooting a Palestenian person without reason shouldn't be for you more surprising than an SS soldier shooting a jew without reason.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:20:19 UTC from web-
@nerthos None of this surprises me, as I've been in these situations and could have been wrong in them. The thing is, I didn't have the time to think about it for fear of being killed, and neither did the Israeli guards, and as far as we know the police in the capitol were in the same mindset. I won't condone their actions, but I can relate to them.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:22:32 UTC from web-
@awlpony That's what I'm saying. The cops if suspecting she might be a terrorist, have to decide between the life of the woman who might have a backup plan, a bomb, or whatever; and their own lifes and that of the people surrounding them. If the woman ends up being clean and they didn't shoot her, then yeah, everyone's happy. But if she has a bomb or something, and more people are killed, then it's the cop's fault for not shooting.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:28:43 UTC from web-
@nerthos Pretty much, and then how would the police officers who live through that ordeal feel about making the wrong action? You're taught to take matters like that in your hands in service of a country as well as I'd assume police forces, because no one else can. It's a difficult thing to deal with, but if you're in, you have to.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:31:17 UTC from web
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@rarity I'll be honest. The fact that the woman rammed the White House gates was grounds to suspect maybe she had terror-inspired intent. This coupled with the fact that she led the police through a chase justifies the shooting somewhat. I agree though, that poor baby girl.
Friday, 04-Oct-13 02:03:13 UTC from web
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