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Huh, SWAT 4 is on GOG now. Wonder if that's good. A lot of people seem to like it.
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@gameragodzilla Hey I didn't know they were putting Battlefield games on GOG, cool.
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@maiyannah Not a fan I presume. lol
Isn't SWAT 4 more like Rainbow Six, though? Just as a SWAT officer and not a counter terrorist spec ops unit so you're technically not supposed to shoot all the bad guys?-
@gameragodzilla No.
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@gameragodzilla It's basically Battlefield: Hardline, but trying to pretend its being something more complex by adding on ARMA 2 level controls faffery.
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@maiyannah So it's not actually a good tactical shooter, it's just a military shooter with tacked on tactical shooter controls?
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@gameragodzilla It's mediocre, honestly, more than anything. But it's mediocre in the boring way.
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@maiyannah So it's no Rainbow Six is what you're saying. Huh, okay then. Wonder why a lot of people seem to like it. Irrational developed it, so that's probably why.
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@gameragodzilla It was the only game really trying to be that kind of hybrid at the time, because by then Rainbow Six itself had gone full MMS. It didnt really find the balance, but it was trying. So it has that niche appeal. But there's better out there, especially these days.
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@maiyannah Ah right, this was around the time Rogue Spear was released, right? And later Vegas?
I assume it's also not particularly accurate to how SWAT operates too then.-
@gameragodzilla Its somewheres between hollywood films and real life. It's not particularly accurate, but its more than many games are, to be fair to it.
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@maiyannah Wonder what the best "SWAT simulator" game out there would be then.
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@gameragodzilla Earlier Rainbow Six games honestly. The premise isn't SWAT per se, but the planning and execution very much are.
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@maiyannah There's no planning stage in SWAT 4? I would've figured that kind of planning stage would've been rather ubiqutous for these types of tactical shooters.
Not that I'm any good at them. We all know how I play Rainbow Six 3: waltz into an area with an M60 and Desert Eagle blind and hopefully kill everyone before I die (which never happens)-
@gameragodzilla No, you can order around the squad on the ground but there really isn't a proper planning stage.
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@maiyannah That is really odd considering that part was what separated the old Rainbow Six's from all the other FPS out that time. Hell, I remember some people saying they spend more time in the planning stage and the shooting is mostly a formality once you figure out the best plan. Wonder why SWAT 4 didn't implement it as well.
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@gameragodzilla Because it had to be FAST PACED ACTION RAWR
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@maiyannah Which kind of baffles me because it still has pretensions of being a tactical FPS but without a lot of the planning and depth for the purposes of faster action, but the action itself isn't ever gonna be as explosive as other, deliberately less realistic titles like Soldier of Fortune. I guess it's one of those babby's firsts.
I should get back to Rainbow Six 3 at some point. I'd play the originals but they don't even seem to model the gun models so I'm just holding a crosshair on something. Not a dealbreaker but I like seeing all my nice, high tech modern weapons lovingly modeled in front of my face.
Also I should probably stop trying to play like Rambo.-
@gameragodzilla Like I said, it tried to be that kind of hybrid but didn't really get there.
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@maiyannah Yeah which makes me kind of question the idea of going for a hybrid in the first place. You're never gonna satisfy either side if you go the middle of the road like that. Tactical FPS fans won't like the missing planning features while action FPS fans will still think it's too slow.
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@gameragodzilla Well it definitely found a niche based on how many people like it, I'd say its kind of the niche of people who want to say theyre into tactical shooters but dont want to actually worry too much about that actual tactics part, honestly.
As a shooter it's not bad, but it's somehow less than the sum of both of those parts.-
@maiyannah Yeah I guess so. Same reason why the modern military shooter genre is so popular. Those titles exemplify that "middle of the road" approach between realistic and bombastic.
How's SWAT 3 btw? Better? Worse? The same?-
@gameragodzilla I haven't played that one in a long time. I'd probably have to replay it really because I don't remember it as well as 4. 4 I mostly remember as being pretty overrated. People hyped it up as an uber tactical shooter and all I got was Battlefield with a squad management aspect.
Actually, really, come to think of it Medal of Honor is probably the best direct comparison, because that's what MOH always was. Battlefield with some element of squad management.-
@maiyannah @gameragodzilla What would be nice is a mid point between xcom and an FPS. Kind of like a more realistic valkyria chronicles.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:32:28 UTC from web-
@nerthos @maiyannah That's kind of what the original Rainbow Six titles were. You had a big map, you planned routes for yourself and your squad, and then you executed that plan while in direct control of one of the squadmates.
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@gameragodzilla That sounds great. I should try them, only played the gameboy advance one.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:35:56 UTC from web-
@nerthos Yeah, main issue was I always sucked at the planning stages, which is actually more important than the shooting bits. I just waltz into a situation blind carrying an M60 and a Desert Eagle and hope for the best. I'm also terrible at squad management. Prefer doing everything by myself for the most part. lol
Hence why the Clancy brand game I most got into was Splinter Cell. It's still realistic and requires tactics, but I go in solo and I'm supposed to avoid confrontation rather than plan on how to easily win them.-
@gameragodzilla I'm decent at planning and squad management, what usually screws me is the AI doing stupid things. That's why I liked Xcom and Valkyria Chronicles, as you had to control each soldier so the AI wasn't an issue
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:39:56 UTC from web-
@nerthos Well in XCOM you have to deal with the RNG instead of the AI.
Apparently the entire XCOM division is staffed with Stormtroopers.-
@gameragodzilla I still managed. In the one I played I never lost a single soldier, what screwed me was the lack of resources in the long run since I couldn't fight every battle because for some reason you can only deploy one squad at a time despite having a bunch of them and enough tech to coordinate multiple fronts. So I'd end up winning every land battle ever but my interceptors weren't good enough. My playstyle was safe enough that normally the RNG couldn't screw me, as most of the really dangerous enemies I'd ambush.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:43:42 UTC from web-
@nerthos Yeah, but I've never been one to enjoy RNG in *anything*. Even RPGs with skill points I generally dislike when my damage, accuracy, and "crit" changes are based on a dice roll. I can't really plan well with it.
Of course, XCOM actually feels on a whole other level. So much so that I and a bunch of other people were making XCOM jokes at the people who said Hillary had a 90+% chance of winning the election.-
@gameragodzilla @nerthos Critical hits should be a nice extra, not something you have to rely on min/maxing to have a chance to succeed. This is where many games that implement them fall down, in my opinion.
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@maiyannah I'd actually like to see you play xcom, since you're a former cop. I wonder how much our take on tactics differs.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:51:40 UTC from web-
@nerthos In XCOM 2 I basically just had one sniper who once I got her up to a good vantage point the entire map became an exclusion zone. Rayne was Death, destroyer of worlds. https://community.highlandarrow.com/attachment/53
I think she was averaging around 14 kills a mission by the time I got to the last mission.-
@maiyannah Huh. Not that different then. I'd usually play with an assault soldier with a shotgun and heavy armor, a machine gunner, and two snipers, one specialized and one more rounded up, and set vantage points then baited enemies.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:55:28 UTC from web-
@nerthos I never bothered with assault soldiers, because crysallids Fluffle Puff them up and then they grape you up.
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@nerthos Especially in XCOM 2 where snipers are basically also CQB champs with up to three automatic pistol reaction shots a turn if you take a certain combination of the upgrade perks or whatever they were called.
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@nerthos I didn't like XCOM 2 in that regard. It tried to paint my guys as a slapdash resistance force when basically they walked on water, killed everything in sight, and probably were able to cure every disease and solve world hunger too.
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@maiyannah Assaults were good in Enemy Unknown. Of course you can't rely on them without support, but the huge damage bonuses of short range plus assault weapon reaction shots meant that even chrysalids would rarely get any damage in, and when they did, it'd be negligible due to armor. I mostly used them to bait because of mobility, armor, and reaction shots. Whenever they engaged they had support.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:01:28 UTC from web-
@nerthos Yeah but they basically got entirely obsoleted by the MEC suits in Enemy Within. Mind you, that expansion had a bad, bad case of power creep.
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@maiyannah Oh, I only got it recently and hadn't played it yet. I assumed as much though due to mechanized armor and all that.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:03:30 UTC from web-
@nerthos Lets see, you can basically deploy an guy with a shotgun, or a guy in an armoured robot suit, with a power fist. Which to choose, which to choose...
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@maiyannah Sounds bad. Oh well, I'm happy enough knowing my take on gameplay aligns with someone with actual tactical training. Means I don't suck.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:05:27 UTC from web-
@nerthos If we were talking real world scenarios there'd be a fair lot Id do differently than I do in XCOM but you deal with the ruleset you're dealt.
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@maiyannah Oh yeah of course. I meant in those conditions. Real life doesn't have turns nor is 2D.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:08:12 UTC from web
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@maiyannah Also purple best colour
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:22:55 UTC from web-
@nerthos Black and purple and green have always been the colours I wear personally when I'm not dressing up for something and have a choice in the matter.
I also have some stuff in white and pink but that's more for the "I have to blend in with the normies" situations.-
@maiyannah Well I can agree with those being top tier choices. I don't much like green with purple, but it does go well with black as well as purple and black.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 20:25:21 UTC from web-
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@maiyannah I just personally don't like how those colours work with eachother too much. Not to say everyone has to dislike the combination, and there are certain exceptions of course.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 20:27:47 UTC from web-
@nerthos I'd show you what I mean but I dont think I have pictures and that's probably not the brightest idea to maintain the shred of privacy I have left anyways.
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@maiyannah Well, my email is out in the open with just a bit of digging or asking katie if you ever want to show. You don't need to though. Same as I told her, nothing told or shown to me in confidence ever leaves without the person who shared it telling me to share.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 20:34:42 UTC from web
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@gameragodzilla I tend to compensate that by engaging in ways I have spare shots. It's kinda slow but the enemy rarely manages to get past the barrage and if they do they'll likely be going against a well armored assault soldier with a shotgun and a sniper covering them, so the enemy turn will make it eat a few more shots.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:50:52 UTC from web-
@nerthos @gameragodzilla < this is why I never bought the complaint that XCOM 2 needed to slow things down more as it did with certain mechanics (and then, paradoxically and frustratingly, gave you time pressure)
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@maiyannah I don't like time pressure missions. More than anything because without them, unless the map is huge, my times are reasonable for an actual firefight. I do understand things like "if you don't clear it in X time you get enemy reinforcements" but not outright "15 minutes or you lose"
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:57:21 UTC from web-
@nerthos XCOM 2 gives you 10 turns from when the mango hits the fan to extract and if you don't, those guys are gone.
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@maiyannah That sounds really bad. Doesn't really make sense. I understand that in specific missions like enemy base assault but not for normal skirmishes.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:02:02 UTC from web
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@nerthos Yeah, it's about positioning so you could brute force the RNG in a way. But still, I'd much rather have guarenteed hits and the gameplay is based more on deciding where to position and when to attack a la chess.
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@gameragodzilla I agree with that, but in general I didn't mind the chances that much as up close they were almost guaranteed and at longer ranges they make sense as even if you're a good shooter, predicting the movements of an alien creature and aiming accordingly is extremely hard since you don't know how they think, unlike humans and animals you can research.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:58:58 UTC from web-
@nerthos @gameragodzilla 95% hit chance is usually 0% hit chance
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@nerthos > Since you don't know how they think
Tell that to the hordes of Strogg I gunned down singlehandily in the Quake games. :p
But more seriously, I understand that but I'd still rather said unpredictability be implemented in real time via them moving in an odd way and thus throwing off my aim rather than just sitting there pressing a button from a detached view and pray to RNGesus that He smiles upon me.-
@gameragodzilla I understand where you're coming from, but I still quite liked xcom's way to do it.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:02:57 UTC from web-
@nerthos Yeah each to their own. I know a lot of people like that RNG element, hence the continuing popularity of these types of games. I just never got along with them, due to my background in action games where everything was mostly controlled directly. If I missed in Doom, it was because I missed, not because the dice roll said Fluffle Puff you.
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@gameragodzilla Oh, I like direct aim games too, don't get me wrong. I just think RNG is ok in turn based tactical games as long as it's not ridiculous and you can increase your chances with upgrades and positioning.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:06:27 UTC from web-
@nerthos @gameragodzilla As long as it's not ridiculous is XCom's chief problem.
I actually got into why that was in the XCOM 2 review and it basically comes down to the fact that, for instance, the infamous 95% hit chance is BEFORE it applies any modifiers from skills, the enemies' skills, or other special modifiers like certain cover effects. So it isn't showing you the actual hit percentage. The game lies to you.-
@maiyannah That really sucks. I'd hate it too if I had to deal with fake numbers. I'm going by enemy unknown since it's the one I played and was decent in that regard.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:09:21 UTC from web-
@nerthos XCOM had it too, but there were only a few things it didn't enter into those numbers so it wasn't as pronounced a problem.
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@maiyannah @nerthos I wonder if that infamous image of a 65% hit chance at point blank actually happens or if it was just a fluke.
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@gameragodzilla Only if the enemy is really, really fast, you're bad, or they know how to disarm you. Not in the way RNG games portray which is more akin to this http://rainbowdash.net/attachment/856303
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:13:31 UTC from web-
@nerthos filename "fallout 1.png"
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:13:59 UTC from web-
@nerthos Yeah RPGs were also pretty bad at this due to the whole skill point thing. That was actually why the only "RPG" I ever got through was Deus Ex Human Revolution, and that's not even "really" an RPG. It had all the elements of an RPG that I was interested in: dialogue choices, exploration, worldbuilding etc. but without any skill points and every upgrade is substantial and are more in line with action game upgrades.
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@gameragodzilla What these games really need is a huge boost when at point blank. I understand a % chance when far since I've actually used a gun and sometimes you slightly move the gun when pulling the trigger, but that doesn't matter at point blank range, only when far enough that half a degree off means you miss.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:21:26 UTC from web-
@nerthos Yeah I know. At point blank range, you basically have to try to miss. I've seen close quarter self defense classes teach that if you're within arms length of an assailent, you should just pull out your gun and fire from the hip, because while firing from the hip normally would make you wildly off target, at that close range it doesn't make much of a difference and speed is critical.
But again, that's why I prefer real time aiming. If I miss in real time at a distant target, I know it's my fault. And real time aiming naturally gets easier or harder depending on distance. But XCOM ain't an FPS and that time they tried to make it one didn't go well...
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@nerthos @gameragodzilla The best part was them "missing" shots where the firearm is literally pressed against the baddie. Sometimes even located somewheres within them, given the clipping errors.
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@maiyannah The bullets were squeamish and didn't want to get covered in blood.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 19:19:43 UTC from web
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@gameragodzilla @nerthos TBH Stormtroopers are probably insulted by that comparison.
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@maiyannah Ehh, regarding MoH, maybe later entries. I played the first MoH and while I liked it, it was more Saving Private Ryan + RTCW without any zombies or superscience. But otherwise I get ya.
I guess it might also compare to Ghost Recon maybe? I haven't played the absolute original, but I don't think Advanced Warfighter had a planning stage and mainly focused on real time squad tactics, right?-
@gameragodzilla I remember MoH:AA being a pretty good action shooter. Not realistic enough to make it super hard but enough that you couldn't go rambo.
Tuesday, 24-Jan-17 18:36:53 UTC from web -
@gameragodzilla Well its how the series diverged from just "Battlefield clone" and found it's own sort of thing - the squad management sort of aspect. Sadly, it's managed by EA, so unless it makes fifty billion dollars it'll basically just get sequels when a development house manages to get their own funding tofether.
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@maiyannah Well they're too busy milking Star Wars and Battlefield to bother refining them. Which sucks because I actually quite liked some of the Medal of Honor titles. Still haven't played the reboot or Warfighter but I did play Airborne which had impressive level design for a military shooter. Rather than going along a corridor just shooting dudes mostly by yourself, you were part of the Airborne division and could parachute to whichever point on the map you desired (though there were designated safe zones) and rock and roll from there. It was a neat system and I wonder why no other game has done it.
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@gameragodzilla Yeah MOH has kind of been the EA MMS that has gotten away with experimenting like that, being the off-brand one. Kind of like how Mad Max got away with being amazeballs because it was Avalanches B-Team effort.
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@maiyannah Yeah it's just a shame such efforts aren't rewarded with better sales. I guess in that sense the Call of Duty model actually works to its benefit. It's all under the CoD brand so it'll still sell based on that brand, but since it has 3 different development studios, they can all put their own spin on it. So Infinity Ward just Potato Knishess out what's popular, Treyarch's staff takes drugs and goes off kilter, and Sledgehammer really REALLY wants to make Unreal Tournament.
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@gameragodzilla It's funny to me you mention the brand power because honestly the SWAT series brand is 100% of what sold that game. People kind of just tack on the "omg its a tac shooter" thing to justify their purchase if you ask me.
It's since been beat, but at the time it was the most preordered game ever.-
@maiyannah In that case, I would assume some of the earlier SWAT titles were better if it managed to ride on the name that way.
I know it's also by Irrational, which is why I knew about it, but I dunno if Irrational's name carried that much marquee value as they did by the time BioPotato Knishes Infinite rolled around.
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@gameragodzilla It's alright, but I'd wait for a sale, it isnt really worth what they're wanting for it on GOG right now.
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@maiyannah Huh okay then.
What's wrong with it, if I may ask?
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