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This is why many conservative religious folks have gun collections.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:45:39 UTC from web-
@pony Why would they need to defend themselves anyway. If they believe in an afterlife, why would they worry about dying
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:49:19 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark for their wives and children
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:50:24 UTC from web-
@pony Surely they're also going to heaven 'cause they chose the right religion?
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:51:19 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark in other words, so that their families wouldn't be left fatherless or unprotected. I wouldn't trust my murderers to kill my family mercifully, but even if I did, I, and any other theist worth their salt believes life is a gift not to be surrendered unless at the utmost need.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:53:59 UTC from web-
@pony Would that situation /not/ constitute utmost need? Your options are either shoot first, and commit the sin of murdering a dude, or let them shoot you.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:56:23 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark Bloodshed is a sin, but there are according to the bible situations where killing someone else doesn't count as bloodshed, one such situation is if you kill a robber that is inside your house.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:58:22 UTC from web -
@ceruleanspark Muder is a sin, but not killing. There is a distinct difference.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:58:35 UTC from web-
@pony Perfectly worded.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:59:39 UTC from web -
@pony Where's the line? If the other guy hasn't actually harmed you yet, can you say with sufficient certainty that he /would/ have done, had you not killed him?
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:59:53 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark We can't say, which is why, in my faith, we rely on personal divine revelation, and sometimes more general prophetic revelation for God's people as a whole. There are several examples given in the Book of Mormon and Bible that can serve as general guidelines, but we're not supposed to rely on our own judgement to determine when to end another's life. That is a mortal sin.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:04:16 UTC from web-
@pony There are passages in the bible that specifically say "It's OK to kill in X situation"
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:05:57 UTC from web-
@nerthos I'm thinking specifically in the Old Testament when God commanded Israel to utterly wipe out populations, man, woman, child, and livestock all.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:08:01 UTC from web-
@pony Yeah, God went blood knight a bunch of times in the old testament. I would too in some situations so I can't blame him for that. Can't say he's benevolent either.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:09:30 UTC from web
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Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:08:38 UTC from web
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@pony Be my slave or die.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:10:04 UTC from web-
@nerthos kinda.. I don't recall the specifics any more, but honestly it takes a lot of faith to slaughter perfectly usable livestock for no known reason beyond God's command through a prophet.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:12:16 UTC from web-
@pony That's called bloodlust.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:13:31 UTC from web-
@nerthos It completely depends on the intention of the one killing. Fortunately God is a perfect judge.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:16:24 UTC from web-
@pony So you say, but you aren't impartial nor personally know god.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:17:52 UTC from web-
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:19:12 UTC from web
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@pony I know you think you personally know God, but personally knowing someone means actually talking to the person in question extensively. Belief and feel does not count.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:21:35 UTC from web-
@nerthos I've known Him, but I believe I've done a poor job at staying in touch. I try and I fail often to be completely worthy, but I can't deny, and in fact I can't sit idle when my witness is questioned of certain truths.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:25:41 UTC from web-
@pony I do think that according to your religion he hasn't taken an avatar in quite a while.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:28:13 UTC from web-
@nerthos In my faith a soul becomes mortal only once including Christ's soul. God the Father and Christ are separate entities as well as the Holy Ghost yet they're all one in purpose.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:30:46 UTC from web-
@pony That has nothing to do with what I said.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:31:52 UTC from web-
@nerthos what you seemed to infer is that it's not possible to know a person without seeing them. I simply disagree.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:33:21 UTC from web-
@pony I never said seeing.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:35:03 UTC from web-
@nerthos Very well then. In the past I've met the requirement of talking extensively with God about personal matters through senses beyond sight, sound, touch, taste, or smell.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:38:06 UTC from web-
@pony That sounds to me more close to infatuation than interaction but this conversation is already boring.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:40:25 UTC from web
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@nerthos and other less extreme cases where he just commanded them to take over a land by force with mortal violence as needed.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:09:59 UTC from web-
@pony I remember this one. I know there's more. http://ur1.ca/g3f93 As I said, there's more than one situation under which the bible says that it's OK to kill, without any sort of divine commandment.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:12:57 UTC from web-
@nerthos oh yeah. The Law of Moses was a bit stiff that way, but Christians believe it was fulfilled and a higher law given that requires forgiveness for thievery.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:15:41 UTC from web-
@pony I like the law of Moses. Moses knew his cherries.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:18:19 UTC from web -
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:18:43 UTC from web
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Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:17:44 UTC from web
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Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:59:36 UTC from web
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@ceruleanspark I'm not even religious and that was stupid. Come on man. "They can die cause they believe in heaven so who cares right?" Unless you were joking in which case carry on please ignore me.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:53:17 UTC from web-
@hoit If you fervently believe there's an afterlife that's literally a perfect world free from all suffering why /wouldn't/ you rush to get there?
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:53:58 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark Because no one wants to die. I mean it is against your nature to want to die. Even if you believe there is an afterlife you also believe that the life you lead is a gift and if there is one thing I know about religious people they tend not to squander the gifts their gods give them.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:56:00 UTC from web-
@hoit Lots of people want to die. Free will frequently overrides base level biological imperatives.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:57:30 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark Cerulean please tell me you aren't serious. Or that we're on a different page. It sounds to me like you're saying its okay to kill religious people because "grapes it then wanna die anyway". I know you're way smarter and more compassionate then that.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:59:41 UTC from web-
@hoit There's a difference between saying that it's OK to kill someone (which, as a general rule, it is not), and saying that people who believe they're going to receive an eternal reward after death should not be overly concerned about dying, because it's actually going to be pretty great for them if they're right.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:02:11 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark I know plenty of god fearing folks who don't want to die. This is so backwards to me. I don't know anyone who wants to die. Religious or otherwise. People as a rule of thumb tend to want to live. Beiliving in a force that wants you to do good and be rewarded at the end of a good life for those good deeds just seems like a deal sweetener not a reason to go killing myself. Hell if it was more plausible I would be first in line! I consider myself agnostic because of this.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:05:56 UTC from web-
@hoit Being afraid of suffering whilst you die, or being concerned about the the consequences stemming from your death (Fatherless children and so on) are completely separate from being afraid of the actual concept of death.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:09:36 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark Ah, well I see what you mean now. Well if I think of it that way, neither am I. And I'm terrified of death and being away from people who need me.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:10:38 UTC from web -
@ceruleanspark On the other hand there is an example in the Book of Mormon where the people had sworn to God that they would not kill any more (because of their past bloodlust) and they went to kneel and be slaughtered on the battle field before their enemies stopped part-way through.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 09:14:23 UTC from web
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@ceruleanspark because life is a trial worth living until our creator calls us from it, and not our persecutors. However, sometimes God allows the persecutors to martyr his people so that they may reap the rewards of their choices. If he interceded always then life would not be a true test of our merit.
Monday, 25-Nov-13 08:57:41 UTC from web
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