Conversation
Notices
-
America sure is the best at killing kids in schools
Friday, 11-Jul-14 14:55:13 UTC from web-
@pony Now that your arguments been broken apart you've resorted to sarcastic commentary, nice.
-
@northernnarwhal Just meant to lighten the mood. I fail epicly at that whenever I try, I think.
But seriously, I'm not saying we're perfect. -
@pony No country's perfect. But I still think fighting fire with fire is not the way to go with the gun issue in America. Although maybe as a foreigner it's not my place to speak.
-
@northernnarwhal you know that fighting fire with controlled fire is an actual strategy that works very well, right?
-
@pony I'm speaking in terms of the figure of speech, in which case it's entirely situational. And I'm saying in the context of the gun law fighting guns with more guns isn't the way to go about it.
-
@northernnarwhal If I understand correctly, you're saying that guns only bring about negative consequences because of their destructive power. I'm saying that sometimes, to reign in greater destruction, we need to sacrifice something.
-
@scoot Yeah, fairly sure that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure." more or less means that there are upsides to acts like civil war, and civil political assassinations.
-
@pony Why does that sacrifice have to be human lives? Why do we have to bring ourselves to the level of the people we are trying to combat in order to combat them?
-
@critialcloudkicker I had no interest in the quote because I don't see how something said 200-300 years ago should be relevant to gun crime in 2014
-
@scoot I know you mean that, and I love you for saying it :) Sadly you can not apply the same "it has been said so long ago, how is this still relevant ?" to a lot of things without upsetting everyone and their mom
-
@critialcloudkicker Not all quotes become irrelevant, but this time I felt it was talking about a world we no longer live in.
-
@northernnarwhal We should never desire to kill, but we should be willing to if called upon for a greater cause. It's more merciful to kill a murderer than to lock him away forever if it means that he'll have remorse for his crime.
-
@pony If we kill all the murderers in the world there will be no people left, because by killing murders we ourselves become murderers.
-
@northernnarwhal I meant murderers who kill because they desire to kill.
-
@pony And you desire to kill these people, yes? To fulfill your sense of justice? So how does it make you any different?
-
@pony What if you see someone shoot a murderer, think that person is a murderer and shoot them for being a murderer when they weren't at all
-
@scoot I was primarily thinking about famous quotes, or books. George Orwell 's 1984 would get your some friends and allies for quoting it, but the bible could sway both ways, I am actually not sure what book is quoted more in Europe these days.
-
@pony I was making the stand that if you see someone shoot someone else, they look like a murderer
-
@northernnarwhal Oh now we're getting into motives.. Can I say, "want to kill people for selfish reasons?"
-
@northernnarwhal Isn't that what "the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun" boils down to ?
-
@pony What if they're psychotic? Then it's not a question of being selfish, because following their motives they feel they're doing no wrong.
-
@pony Are we quoting Vladimir Putin now ?
-
@critialcloudkicker Yes, but that ideology isn't necessarily correct. Because in order for that to work you have to define good and bad, which subjects the issue to your personal ethics.
-
@critialcloudkicker That argument is wrong of course, but it doesn't mean guns aren't useful for stopping bad guys.
-
@northernnarwhal Then I'd be inclined to capture them if they can be captured safely and try to reform them. If they can't be reformed then thy stay locked up or, if their crimes are heinous enough, they're ssent to be reformed in the hereafter.
-
@critialcloudkicker I'd be interested in hearing his take on the issue.
-
@pony So if psychotic people can be captured why not sane people with the intent to kill?
-
@northernnarwhal So if you want a country to grow big, don't you usually have a stable lineage of people ( or in the very least, the same lineage of people ) to guide the country in ways of ethics ? Since I never did a study on, but would find it most likely, that if you would develop ethics way differently from coast to coast without a "king" or "role model". What I am saying is. Why is there such a big difference between good and bad over there ?
-
@pony I would too to be honest. After all, Russia is next to America the biggest nation that has ethics mixed into their roots to a comparable degree. And both sides think the other side is odd, stupid, or flatout weird.
-
@critialcloudkicker That's even worse, because the morals of a grand collective are being imposed upon by the morals of a few privileged individuals. That's no way to run a country, one person should not be in charge of the ethics of a nation. And there really isn't that much of a difference between good and evil here if you closely examine the two, but even still that's a moot point because it goes back to my previous point about not being able to properly define either.
-
@northernnarwhal There's no way to know motives for sure, which is why, ideally, we should capture all the (unauthorized) killers, then spend too much money giving them due process, or else simply deter them with the threat of equal retaliation should they attempt to shoot us. If somebody comes onto a scene not knowing who it was that started shooting and why, it's best to leave it to the authorities, but in the case of a serial shooting at a theater or mall or school, the solution is clear.
-
@pony So you're now admitting that we should be locking away killers as opposed to killing them back?
-
@northernnarwhal The minority imposing its will on the majority in cases of morals still happens whether for good or bad.
-
@critialcloudkicker I don't know the Russian government's ethics so I can't confirm what you've said.
-
@northernnarwhal I'm admitting it's not so cut and dry, yes, and taking away gun protection from responsible citizens isn't the solution to stopping violent murder.
-
@northernnarwhal Agreed, you can never define either. But if there was a role model of any kind that said things like "if you murder a murderer, you yourself have become a murderer" (Chaotic/neutral good side of the allignment chart ) or "Murdering a murderer should be every man's duty, it is not evil, as it is justice" ( Lawful good/neutral side of the alignment chart ) you would sway the moral grey area by A LOT. Instead in the America's everyone was left to fend for themselves, and argueably creating a GIGANTIC grey area on the grid ( lets keep the alignment D&D grid as reference point ) Argueably untill MSNBC and Fox news came on the TV and spread their vision of truth.
-
@northernnarwhal I feel that if the majority clearly wants to make mistakes, those mistakes need to be upheld by the government. More often than not, the majority chooses right.
-
@northernnarwhal At least that's my hope, I mean. Maybe I'm wrong and the majority doesn't usually choose right.
-
@northernnarwhal Sure it does, statistically at least v
-
@critialcloudkicker I don't believe in role models, because that goes back to my point of letting the morals of the few control the morals of the many. If I was a powerful and influential person and told everyone they should kill everyone they disagree with, would that not make their actions good as they're following the moral code I've imposed upon them?
-
@pony No one wants to make mistakes, we all want to do the right thing but everyone has different ideas of what "right" is.
-
@northernnarwhal precisely. It shouldn't be up to the minority to decide unless we simply want to abandon whatever semblance of democracy we have in the U.S.
-
@northernnarwhal Because letting everyone figuring it out for themselves seems to work much better ? Note that individual needs get thrumped by the greater good
-
@critialcloudkicker That's what I was saying, and I'm done with this conversation too.
-
@northernnarwhal btw. Sorry I misread those charts. I had it backwards. The U.S. is really murderous for a first world nation. Anyway I guess the topic's been dropped, but I couldn't just not apologize.
-
@northernnarwhal sure thing
-
@pony I think regardless of our views on a certain subject we can all still come together here on this site and set our differences aside too
-
@northernnarwhal That's the true mark of civilized individuals.
