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Monday, 11-Nov-13 06:47:28 UTC from web
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@flamingpandaomg Booty beauty is something I can get behind.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 06:51:50 UTC from web-
@coffeecream If you know what I mean
Monday, 11-Nov-13 06:52:31 UTC from web
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@snowcone Meh. I like them all equally.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 06:56:57 UTC from web -
@snowcone I was strictly taking into consideration the T and the A. I never said that one was better than everything else, just the other thing
Monday, 11-Nov-13 06:57:36 UTC from web -
@snowcone Lets not go into details, okay?
Monday, 11-Nov-13 06:59:45 UTC from web -
@snowcone cliche but personality. If I love someone for who they are, they could be a midget for all I care
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:00:20 UTC from web -
@snowcone I'm saying we need to keep the timeline pg as much as possible.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:03:11 UTC from web -
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:04:11 UTC from web
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@snowcone It's taking precautions since I'm partially responsible for the timeline.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:05:55 UTC from web-
@flamingpandaomg no faith in me </3
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:06:23 UTC from web-
@rarity I have faith in people but I still need to make sure nothing goes out of hands.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:07:07 UTC from web
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@snowcone THIS job doesn't. I like it. My actual job doesn't really suck either, it's just physically exhausting and takes up basically all of my time now.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:07:40 UTC from web -
@snowcone How so?
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:09:36 UTC from web -
@snowcone I don't think it's that weird. I like having responsibility and being able to actually deal with things that crop up instead of sitting there with ym thumb up my ass mumbling under my breath.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:12:38 UTC from web-
@flamingpandaomg You ain't some hassidic hillbilly with a snoot fulla honeybees
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:13:45 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark you lost me after hillbilly.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:15:36 UTC from web-
@flamingpandaomg 62% of American children are born with hooves and a full head of hair
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:16:13 UTC from web-
@ceruleanspark You've lost me.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:18:12 UTC from web
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@ceruleanspark Nearly 62% of American children are born with hooves and a full head of hair
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:16:03 UTC from web
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@snowcone Sometimes I can't control myself around you, Snowcon.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:15:14 UTC from web -
@snowcone You make fun but I have seen people seriously claim this on Tumblr
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:19:06 UTC from web -
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:21:37 UTC from web-
"An adult once told me that she was very concerned about my mental health when I mentioned that I’d much rather listen to Led Zeppelin than Justin Bieber."
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:23:24 UTC from web -
cutting part of the vocal chords of a human that's mentally incapable of understanding the consequences of yelling/screaming in public could actually improve their quality of life substantially since they'd no longer need to remain isolated and their guardians would be in a better mood with them.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:34:17 UTC from web-
Monday, 11-Nov-13 07:38:21 UTC from web
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@pony Okay I realize this was posted seven hours ago, but I just /really/ feel a need to point out how papayaty of an opinion this is to have about things okay
Monday, 11-Nov-13 14:22:30 UTC from web-
@redenchilada I may have felt the same way you do if I hadn't had dogs that wouldn't stop disturbing the neighbors and if I weren't neutral about infant circumcision. If we accept that cutting perfectly healthy usable bits off of infants for no good reason then disabling part of the vocal chords seems pretty standard.
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@pony I don't have any opinions one way or the other about circumcision, but there is no good reason to cut vocal cords in... anyone. I don't care if the person is disabled and screams up a storm. I have an older brother who is exactly that and the screaming never happens for no reason. There's always some aspect of fear or a need for attention/assistance that causes the screaming, and he does it because he is mentally incapable of communicating it in any other way. "Fixing" the issue by removing his ability to scream wouldn't solve anything, and considering he used to just get extremely violent around people when he needed something I think I'd gladly prefer the screaming.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 14:47:14 UTC from web-
@redenchilada I think it's unwise and would be inhumane to perform such an operation in every case. The only cases where it would be appropriate I think might be where the individual has attentive caretakers that don't need to rely on the screaming to know when something is needed.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 14:50:08 UTC from web-
@pony @redenchilada in those cases, I mean, the benefits would almost definitely outweigh the drawbacks.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 14:50:47 UTC from web -
@pony It's inhumane to perform such an operation in any case, since a human life is not a tool to be modified to fit its situation. And even setting that aside, I don't care how attentive a caretaker you are, there are things that you simply won't know about because the person being cared for has to communicate it to you themselves. If a mentally disabled person is screaming, it's likely because they're not happy, and if that's because they're in a social situation they're not comfortable with then they need to be eased into situations like that and made to be comfortable around other people. And don't tell me that can't be done, because it happened with my older brother. Cutting even part of their vocal cords is cutting off one of their modes of communication, and when dealing with mental disabilities modes of communication are few and far between.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:01:27 UTC from web-
@redenchilada Certainly in your brother's case it sounds like your family made the best choice, and I get what you're driving at I think. that further disabling communication is too negative a consequence. Of course it would vary from person to person, but some would continue to scream at a whisper, regardless of there being no sound, and thus they'd continue to communicate, but at a more regulated volume. I think it should be a last resort, and I think it's not ideal by any means, but I still accept that it may be the best option for some caretakers. For some caretakers, dealing with the noise is too difficult and they'd either end up hurting their own mental health by continuing to deal with it (thus harming the disabled person ultimately), or they'd end up turning the care of their loved one over to the state or some other 3rd party. Maybe this latter option is better, and maybe not. The reason for the screaming would need to be studied carefully before stopping it of course.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:10:54 UTC from web-
@pony Would you advocate cutting off the limbs of para/quadraplegics to make it easier for carers to move them in and out of wheelchairs/beds? The point at which you start physically mutilating another person because they're /inconvenient/ is the point at which you've overstepped your bounds.
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@ceruleanspark @flamingpandaomg eliminating a person's limbs may be convenient, but it would cause severe emotional scarring. If not, or if the person elected to get rid of their limbs, then I'd say go for it.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:18:28 UTC from web-
@pony emotional scarring that would certainly outweigh any convenience. I don't believe vocal cutting invariably scars a person emotionally the same way.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:19:22 UTC from web-
@pony you right now http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-A0cvuzIQA1g/T0vjgjfoG8I/AAAAAAAAAPI/_0h-BF6PLco/s1600/images.jpg
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:20:38 UTC from web-
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:24:35 UTC from web
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@pony You don't know unless you've gone through the process yourself, and it still doesn't justify mutilating another person just because it's convenient for you.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:21:03 UTC from web-
@flamingpandaomg It's not just about convenience. It's about improving the life conditions for the individual by enabling them to stay in the company of others they otherwise wouldn't
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:23:38 UTC from web-
@pony Because otherwise it's inconvenient for the caretakers, so we should improve THEIR life because the person they're taking care of is annoying.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:25:53 UTC from web-
@flamingpandaomg only if another solution can't be found and the benefits outweigh the costs, yes. I keep repeating this.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:28:12 UTC from web-
@pony I really didn't want to get involved in this, but one thing I've noticed with your argument is that you don't seem to believe disabled individuals to actually be people. It doesn't matter if they're inconvenient or annoying, disabled people are people, and have the exact same rights as everyone else. I weep for your future children.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:31:02 UTC from web-
@rarity By "not people" I'm guessing you mean that I think they're different from others? I think everybody has different needs, be it medication, or freedom, or incarceration, or death, or what have you.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:37:39 UTC from web-
@pony I personally think mutilation is something that's more akin to a punishment or torture. Not really a fix to an inconvenience, which like I said, is being caused by a person, not a dog similar animal
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:41:29 UTC from web-
@rarity we pierce ourselves for beauty and social status. We circumcise babies, we tattoo ourselves. I don't agree with any of these really, but they're all examples of painful things we do that serve us in some way.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:47:21 UTC from web-
@pony But that's something you do to yourself? I fail to see how that is even marginally related.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:49:22 UTC from web-
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:54:26 UTC from web
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"The Mexicans." Wow.
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:59:29 UTC from web
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@pony but does ear piercing inhibit a persons ability to communicate? You could even argue that circumcision doesn't have a significant drawback. I'm absolutely amazed that you keep coming up with these flawed arguments without realizing how far you've shoved your own foot in your ass
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:57:07 UTC from web-
@rarity dood u mad? It sounds like you seem to think there is no way that the benefits of the surgery can outweigh the costs. We can simply disagree if that suits you better than discussing it rationslly.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:02:26 UTC from web-
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:03:59 UTC from web
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@rarity please accept this compensation for damages. http://i.imgur.com/npCaAei.png
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:08:48 UTC from web-
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:10:24 UTC from web
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@rarity You seemed like you wanted something. I have more if you like. http://rainbowdash.net/file/satan-20130210T075241-vzcptw9.jpeg Honestly I just think you're acting immature and I'm responding with humor to lighten the mood.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:13:21 UTC from web
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@pony There's no point in discussing something like this rationally, because then I would have to concede that there is a chance you might be right. I'm just absolutely blown away that there can be this huge discussion about whether or not it's okay to cut out someones vocal chords
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:05:47 UTC from web-
@rarity What if doing so allowed them to have legs so they could pursue their unrequited crush and leave their family behind tho!?!?!!?!!?
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@rarity are you sure you know what we're discussing? the issue is about whether or not it would be okay to cut only a small part of the chords to regulate only screaming or loud yelling
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:11:44 UTC from web
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@pony Piercing and circumcision isn't for beauty or social status though. They're not even a fair comparison for something like cutting out someone's vocal cords so they can't scream anymore.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:49:30 UTC from web-
@flamingpandaomg cutting vocal cords isn't for beauty or social status*
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:50:42 UTC from web -
@flamingpandaomg I agree. the operation would serve an entirely different, more useful purpose, to promote the well being of the disabled person.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:53:27 UTC from web-
@pony But cutting their vocal cords doesn't improve their well being! Finding out what causes the screaming, and fixing that, is what improves their well being.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:56:01 UTC from web-
@redenchilada Buh, why treat the root when you can suppress the symptom?
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@redenchilada I agee with the latter part of your statement. As to the former, I think cutting them can help
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:59:13 UTC from web
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@pony It all falls apart there though: If a disabled person doesn't have sufficient agency to consent/refuse consent, then the alleged benefit (to the patient) that it will enable them to "Socialise better" can't ever really come into play.
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@ceruleanspark I believe that being in the presence of other human beings can and does benefit everyone, even if they're comatose.. but that's just my opinion.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:04:30 UTC from web
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@pony The implication is that you think of them as subhuman and not capable of the same depth of feeling that an "able" person would. Hence your willingness to justify mutilating them w/o their consent solely for reasons of personal convenience.
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@ceruleanspark I'm not sure you've caught what I've written thus far. I've inferred no such thing. The operation should be for their own benefit ultimately
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:48:46 UTC from web-
@pony @redenchilada Can we argue about something important instead, like which pony is best pony?
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:50:32 UTC from web
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@pony Pretty sure people who would rather surgically alter someone than accept their handicap aren't worth remaining in the company of.
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:28:58 UTC from web
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@pony The problem is that this assumes in person in question even wants to be in the company of those people. From personal experience, my brother would only start causing a ruckus if he was miserable in his situation, in the same way a completely mentally normal person would start whining about things. Both of which are equally as annoying and convey the same thoughts, one of which is just more direct about it.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:28:12 UTC from web-
@redenchilada sometimes it's not just want, but need also. In any case, with or without the cutting, a caretaker who considers the operation should ideally still be able to decipher when the disabled person wants to leave the company of others without hearning them scream.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:32:18 UTC from web-
@pony Okay, here's my main issue with your argument. All of your refutes have been something to the tune of "only if they can find another equally attention-getting way". (Correct me if I'm wrong.) The thing is if they /do/ have another attention-getting way, doesn't that make them every bit as annoying to their caretakers? So you're still in the same situation you were in before. Nobody's any happier. Except now the disabled kid has half-functioning vocal cords. So in the end, then, what have you done except for mutilating a person?
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:36:03 UTC from web-
@redenchilada Disabled person, rather. Still gets the same point across.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:37:44 UTC from web -
@redenchilada that's a very good point. If there are other "problem" communication methods, then that, I think, should be taken seriously into consideration before an operation. There may not be any other problem communication methods however. They may have perfectly un-harmful methods to replace screaming.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:42:55 UTC from web-
@pony But screaming isn't harmful either. Annoying, yes. Harmful, in this case of mentally disabled people? It could not be farther from the truth.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:44:26 UTC from web-
@redenchilada I'm not 100% in agreement there
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:49:14 UTC from web-
@pony How is it harmful? It's used as a method of communication when other outlets don't work. That's like saying yelling at someone when they won't listen is harmful, so we should disable that part of their vocal cords
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:52:53 UTC from web-
@redenchilada yelling when upset, while inappropriate usually, doesn't harm a disabled person or others to the same degree as the type of screaming I'm talking about. I'm thinking, like, hourly screaming for several minutes at a time for no discernible reason maybe mixed in with a couple instances where screaming actually communicates something significant.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:58:24 UTC from web-
@pony If it's no discernable reason, then I dunno... maybe they're expressing emotions or something? Maybe their home situation sucks and they're venting out their frustrations by screaming.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:01:33 UTC from web-
@redenchilada could be, yes. And what if their screams are only alienating them further from what they need? It's like inflammation in the body due to illness. It serves a useful purpose, but it can also cause far greater harm than it can help, hence we use anti-inflammatories.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:06:28 UTC from web
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@pony Because if they can control their screaming enough to do it when they need something, they have enough control to where they could suppress it if there wasn't a reason for them to be doing it.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:03:07 UTC from web-
@redenchilada that's an interresting hypothesis. If it were provable I'd have to change my stance a bit.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:07:41 UTC from web
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@pony And if they do have more convenient methods of communication than screaming, then discipline them to use those. Get them to use those methods by virtue of them being more effective, and not by virtue of one method being removed. Don't tell me that's impossible, because any person with enough mental engagement to use their vocal cords has enough mental engagement to learn how to use the rest of their body to communicate.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:46:57 UTC from web-
@redenchilada I'm assuming, in the case more appropriate for the operation, that, again, the person has no control or judgement over their vocalizing.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:52:19 UTC from web-
@pony "has no control over vocalizing." So, how's about Tourette's? Cut their voices out, too?
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:00:28 UTC from web
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@scribus the person in the examples I'm thinking of would not be able to consent or know what's best for them.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:21:31 UTC from web-
@pony What happens if you apply the "If they can't consent, do whatever /suits you/" decision tree to other contexts I wonder?
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@ceruleanspark lots of crazy stuff! Sometimes it gets abused and, hopefully more often, it gets used to benefit people's lives.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:25:40 UTC from web
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:22:17 UTC from web
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@redenchilada also, if the screaming is found only to occur when the environment is safe or can be managed by the caretaker, then the screaming may truly be unnecessary.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:14:35 UTC from web-
@pony The operation really isn't necessary in any case. If the caretaker can't find the cause for the screaming, then there's some deeper issue at hand that's going to need an opinion from someone trained to deal with the mentally disabled. There are way too many solutions to the problem that, even if they are less obvious than "remove the ability to scream", work much better in any possible situation. Maybe the solution is proper use of sedatives, or regular therapy sessions (for the record, my brother gets a combination of the two), or something else, but there's definitely ways to solve it that will make the person much happier in the end than they were before.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:19:58 UTC from web
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@pony And please don't compare people to dogs. Owning a dog is a voluntary choice. Having a kid who then happens to be disabled isn't.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 14:50:17 UTC from web-
@redenchilada I meant no offense, though I understand why it is offensive. I only meant that my dogs were so much happier when they weren't being scolded constantly for noise. Like I said, a disabled person doesn't need to be kept away from the community as much if there's no noise problem.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 14:54:07 UTC from web -
@redenchilada Of course I'm sorry I didn't explain that better
Monday, 11-Nov-13 14:55:31 UTC from web
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:20:41 UTC from web
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:24:18 UTC from web
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@snowcone That may be a case in which the cost outweighs the benefit. emotional scarring like that, again, may not be worth it.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:27:12 UTC from web -
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:29:25 UTC from web
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@snowcone I think you sell nature short of it's ability to surprise you. Also, causing a person discomfort that will help them in the long run is acceptable, including the operation.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:34:28 UTC from web -
@snowcone I don't think anypony is evil from birth so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:35:07 UTC from web-
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:35:32 UTC from web
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@snowcone I agree. That sort of operation risks being abused, but it sounds like we agree it may be alright in very particular cases.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:39:21 UTC from web -
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:40:08 UTC from web
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:43:26 UTC from web
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@snowcone what relevance does the existence of evil-from-birth people have to the existence of the particular type of disabled person we're discussing?
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:44:45 UTC from web -
Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:50:03 UTC from web
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:50:42 UTC from web
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Monday, 11-Nov-13 15:55:21 UTC from web
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@snowcone my dad preferred it usually because the type of interactions he had otherwise were simply unhealthy.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:10:11 UTC from web -
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:10:38 UTC from web
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@snowcone I wouldn't know. At least he had books though. The only problem was when they actually did torture him physically.
Monday, 11-Nov-13 16:14:30 UTC from web
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