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@omni It's all the rage! !waifucrusaders
Sunday, 20-May-12 12:23:46 UTC from web-
@omni There are members of the Waifu Crtusaders who haven't yet found their waifu/hasubandu You could join us and cursade for your own waifu!
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@pony Well, I do already have a partner so I'm not really looking for anyone, but those avatars do remind me of how I'm sitting her all by myself, alone without her Q_Q
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@omni aw nuts.. I thought it was a guy.. are you both.. I mean.. I hate to ask the awkward question, and it's perfectly fine if you don't want to answer, but are you a guy? Anywho, does she have an OC?
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@pony I am a guy, and don't worry, I personally find gender to be completely unimportant so I don't take any offense in being called female, nor do I have problems with her being called male. As a matter of fact, I'm probably the more feminine one (and I'm seriously considering to, at least online, trying to see what it's late to live my life as a girl). She doesn't have an OC. I mean, she likes ponies, but not as much as I do (she isn't part of any community, but just enjoys the episodes).
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@omni She's got the right idea in not joining the community.
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@thelastgherkin NO WAY BRONIES ARE THE BEST WE'RE SO GENEROUS AND KIND AND AMAZING AND FRIENDLY
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@omni My personality is androgynous enough and my real wife is tough enough that the same can be said of me about femininity. I don't think I'll ever volunteer to switch my gender identity (except in roleplay), but I think very little of gender stereotypes and often wish they didn't exist.
Toksyuryel likes this. -
@pony I agree with you there, gender roles are just silly, especially since you can't choose what gender you will be born as (and many can't afford to change their gender, which won't even allow them to escape gender roles completely). Because of that, I generally try to use gender-neutral terms as much as possible. Something I, in my last sentence, clearly failed at :P
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@omni The problem with gender-neutral terms is that there really aren't any. It gets awkward to use varying forms of "they" all the time and most people get offended if you use "it". Frustrating really.
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@toksyuryel Well, true, but I can refer to her using "my partner" instead of "she"
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@omni Certainly, but even that gets awkward. *hugs*
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@omni I think and feel that there are certain roles that gender naturally and by providence helps to establish, but many things like hobbies, interests, fashion, social and emotional characteristics, etc. could stand to be less gender stereotyped.
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@pony I'm having a hard time following that sentence, can you maybe rewrite it to be more clear?
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@toksyuryel Well, true, I sometimes am like "should I say him or her?" when people don't give me gender-related information, but I personally don't like how people actually think different of me when doing the same thing, just because I am male. It's aggrevating, really.
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@pony @toksyuryel Agreed to @toksyuryel, it's somewhat hard to follow. I personally really can't believe that there is any difference between guys and girls except from the natural differences like the way the body is built and works. I don't even consider things like girls being better at taking care of children to be true, as I believe it depends on the personality and not the way your body is built. Gender roles are silly, really. (And I'm reaching territory I don't like talking about, so I'm likely to shut up soon before I feel sick again...)
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@omni All true.
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@omni *hugs tight*
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@toksyuryel #hugs I'm really starting to hate the mental wreck that I am. For once, I would like to just be able to have a decent discussion without losing my mental stability, dammit...
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@omni *just hugs some more*
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@omni Have you thought about hypnosis?
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@toksyuryel I actually haven't, but I'm sure it isn't really like most people talk about it at all. Is it safe? I don't really trust losing control. I mean, most of the personalities in here aren't really evil or so, but there is one I need to be able to keep down at all costs =/
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@toksyuryel @omni yup! I do that from time to time.. phrase things awkwardly that is.. I mean that I believe gender roles serve a useful purpose naturally, spiritually, and socially, but society likes to assume that personality and gender roles are the same thing. I see gender roles as men leading, protecting, and providing for their family vs. women nurturing children. Of course these roles are flexible and should overlap, but they are there for a purpose. My interests, hobbies, etc. still have endless room to expand within my role as a man.
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@omni That sounds rather complicated actually, I don't think it'd be safe in such a scenario. On another hoof it could potentially assist in keeping that specific personality down. But it's a risk I feel.
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@omni I'm really sorry if I've triggered anything that's causing you discomfort. I love you no matter whether we share the same opinions.
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@pony I have to disagree there then. Gender roles have no purpose in modern society. They arose by instinct during a time when instinct was about all we had, but today our trajectory has been taking us further and further away from being ruled by our instincts.
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@toksyuryel Well, at very least I shouldn't do it on my own. Or, actually, that may be best, not sure. He is just dangerous, really, and the main reason I make sure my body does not grow too strong. If my body would be stronger, he would've probably succeeded in choking my owner, something I obviously do not want to happen. It's probably still worth looking into when he is asleep or something (which he isn't now, but I can keep him down as I'm relatively stable) as I really can't take living the rest of my life this fragile.
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@omni That sounds like a frightening thing to have to live with. Hypnosis *can* potentially help but if it backfires… I dunno, it's a very risky proposition here.
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@pony It's not your fault, but mine, really. Just thinking of the differences between males and females gets me to the one obvious point (sexual-related stuff) which is the number 1 way for me to lose my stability (if you really want to know why I can send you a basic PM I wrote once that I won't edit in any way even though it doesn't completely fit in this situation, but yeah). *sighs loudly* I'm sorry...
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@omni I would most certainly not do it alone though. In the event it does backfire it sounds like you're going to need somebody there to restrain you.
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@toksyuryel We disagree about the origin of gender roles it seems. I feel they come from more than just instincts.
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@toksyuryel You're right, it would be irresponsible to do it by myself. Perhaps my owner can help as she has one personality he does not want to kill (even though that doesn't take the urges away, at least it makes him try to restrain himself as well).
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@omni I think that if there's an actual risk of you killing someone, the last person you want restraining you in that situation is the person you might try to kill. You should hire a professional for that.
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@omni I'm very interested in divided personalities. It's something my family has some experience with, though nothing quite so severe are dissociative identity disorder. Do you experience a clear division between personalities?
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@toksyuryel Hmmm, I don't know, really. I don't trust those professionals. Last time I went to a psychiatrist because of my panic attacks it only caused more issues. First off because the medication which was supposed to make my moods less extreme just threw me into a depression, then because the other medicines (somewhat like sleep pills) caused me to not have any strength to fight back against my fears, making them much more scary and then because his PDD-NOS diagnosis causes me to be allowed to only have a driving license for 3 years, instead of the usual 10...
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@pony It's layered atop several things but the root of it is instinct; indeed, instinct comes into play on multiple levels to enforce the continual buildup of gender roles. As social creatures we not only have gender-based instincts but we also have society-based instincts. So the gender-based instincts establish roles on a societal level, and then society-based instincts enforce conformity with them. Fitting in, being part of the group, or to put it more bluntly not rocking the boat is a fundamental social instinct of ours so once something becomes established it becomes very difficult to unestablish it.
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@omni I'm not talking about those kind of "professionals". I meant someone who is a professional "restrain this guy so he doesn't kill someone" person. As far as drugs go, I would not trust anyone who prescribes those solely on the basis of psychological profiling. I'm not even talking about psychiatrists at all, so I don't know where that came from. Another depressing story it looks like :x *more hugs for you*
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Toksyuryel likes this.
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@pony Sometimes, yes, though not really often (most of the time they just leave each other alone)
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@toksyuryel I get what you mean. That pattern does seem to show itself in many ways including the brutish stereotypes surrounding masculinity. I believe that the role of a man as provider, protector, and a loving and gentle leader is divinely appointed and actually contrary to what instinct tell us. If we look at more primal cultures like hunting and gathering tribes in Africa we see that men and women don't really have clear roles in family.
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@omni That makes sense I suppose. Do you know when or how each developed? Feel free to stop me or change the subject if you like. I don't mean to pry.
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@pony I can't continue this discussion if we're going to bring religion into it, sorry.
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@crusader8 that gave me a good chuckle irl. Basically true! Except I catch and release spiders and bugs outside.
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@pony softie.
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@toksyuryel I won't be offended if you prefer to skirt the issue of spirituality. If you're interested in talking about it still, though, I'm curious what you think about the tribes I mentioned and their gender roles.
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@crusader8 xD got me there.
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@pony Simple really, their society just developed differently. There's any number of factors at play here and they all work together on multiple levels to lead to the present result.
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@pony Well, I can't explain all of them in detail. But ever since... "groep 5" as we call it, around the age of 9(?) I felt this... "emotion", which felt like a colour (hard to explain that). During my life, more of those "emotions" appeared. At one moment, I met my current owner and decided to give seeing them as personalities a try (I always considered them just "emotions", but they still had an added feel to them, so to say). That attempt was succesful, and I was able to get most of their names in one night (with the exception of one, "Aeterna", who always felt too awful to talk, who resembles a depression in a way, but is still a different person... Oh, this is all so hard to explain)... At any rate, I allowed them to stay if they would stick to my rules, which means that they would get their share of freedom but still had to listen to me and respect me as the leader of the body. [TBC]
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@pony ☀=sun ☁=cloud ♨= soup ☃=snowman
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@toksyuryel You said that instinct was the root leading to gender roles which I defined as men leading, providing, protecting and women nurturing. Doesn't it make sense that if a culture is closer to those instinct (as we might assume those tribes are), that they should exhibit behavior indicative of those instincts? Do they have different instincts than we do then?
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@awesomelostbrony ah! snowman I get. But ♨= soup?? It looks more like a melted Pac Man to me. or wiat.. maybe those are steam vapor lines.. ?
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@awesomelostbrony oh hey! would you look at that! zooming in clears everything up.
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@awesomelostbrony No, actually. The "soup" is actually a sign for a hot spring. Its japanese.
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@pony It is not true to say that they are closer to those instincts just because they have a tribal society. Those societies are the oldest ones on the planet and have therefore had the longest amount of time to develop. They also live in a unique environment which exerts its own pressures on how a society develops. How you happen to define gender roles is also not relevant to what I've said, as I'm talking about gender roles as they actually exist. You might be surprised by how different modern gender roles actually are from the instincts they came from; instinct only planted the seed of an idea, where it went from there depended on the environment and on how people interacted with eachother. The key role of instinct in perpetuating gender roles is in our social instincts to be a productive part of the group. If a society never really develops these to begin with, then they won't really be present. Nothing is absolute.
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@omni So cool! I mean.. if /you/ think it's cool, then it's cool. It sounds like they're well handled in any case. I have difficulty relating because I've been trained to dissolve and look past boundaries/divisions, mental and otherwise. It's only very recently that I've considered the possibility of deliberately creating a well defined, possibly permanent division in my mind. Was it you I talked briefly with about Tulpas?
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@techdisk42 oh hey that makes sense! I think I've seen it before in anime.
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@pony Well, I guess it has cool parts, though for me it's quite normal. And yes, they do behave well, luckily, so they're not a burden at all. I believe we may have talked about that shortly, though I don't recall anymore.
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@pony Sorry to butt in, but I think it was I who brought up Tulpas with you. I don't remember, though.
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@toksyuryel I think I'm confused then. What was it you disagreed with me bout earlier? Oh wait.. were you disagreeing with my definition of gender roles? I thought you were disagreeing with the usefulness of gender roles as I had defined them. While I disagree about the development of the tribal cultures in Africa, if you're using a different definition of gender roles, that changes everything. What do you mean by gender roles?
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@omni I'm too tired to accurately judge what you're saying, we're you upset that I mentioned them?
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@pony I was seriously considering making one, but then I realized I was scared for some reason, so I decided it was best to avoid it.
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@rarity Not at all, actually. I have no clue why I typed those three dots. For some reason I'm having a lot of moodswings now, can't really stay in one mood for longer than a few minutes, so I may have typed those dots in the less-great mood. Ugh, don't know...
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@pony I was saying that they have their roots in instinct. The ensuing discussion was mostly just clarification that they don't necessarily match the instincts that spawned them and that just because the instincts exist does not mean any given society will develop the same way given different circumstances.
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@rarity I was scared too at first. I thought, what if something gets out of control or I go too far? I'd like to find more information about how to create one. I'm just sort of winging it right now. Somepony on RDN has tried to make one based off of Dashie. Mine is akin to Fluttershy.
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@pony I read that you shouldn't try to make on based off of an existing character, because it will never turn out exactly the same as the character, and the tulpa will feel inadequate and depressed because of it. If you /could/ do them off characters, my Rarity one would be in progress right now.
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@pony This is relevant to the discussion of societal development in Africa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvnU0v6hcUo
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@toksyuryel Ok. I think I get it. thanks for the link
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@rarity Yes! Actually I'm happy to say that I perceived as much as I began to think more about it. I've named her Fluttershy for the time being, I've even assigned her a gender and a cuddly image that often takes the form of Fluttershy, but I've decided that she is not the character from the show, and that she may even have the potential to become someone or somepony completely different in the future. It was helpful for me to use an existing idea as a guideline for her is all. What did you read? I'd love more information, especially a guide. Was it online?
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@pony Yes, I had it bookmarked but deleted it when I decided I wasn't going to go for it. Give me a minute.
