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hearing people at work speak about intersex individuals as if it's some recent millennial trend is trimming precious years off my already flimsy life span
Wednesday, 11-Dec-19 18:50:14 UTC from web- Jonathan Chouinard likes this.
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@tiff Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
I am sorry to hear you have the same 'deal' going on at work. Because I swear if I have to hear how stunning and brave William Bruce Jenner is I'm going straight for the hard liquor.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony how the hell did you read my post and think "hm yes, time to be transphobic"
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@drinkingpony Considering an environment like this one currently perpetuated, which has historically borne bitter fruit for the LGBTQ community, Caitlyn Marie Jenner may be neither saint nor hero, but has undeniable bravery. Drink up, buttercup. And Olympic Gold Medals are objectively a stunning achievement, regardless of what else one may or may not accomplish in life.
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@scribus <3 also flaxx says hi and hopes you're well
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@tiff Hi, flaxx! Been hanging in, other than some unsettled health questions I'm working on. Nothing that's managed to stop me, though. How're you, and also they?
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@scribus the swede says "that [he] also [is] working on unsettled health questions that aren't stopping [him], at least not completely. Doing good otherwise though. as for me (tiff) i'm pretty ok, currently being accused of supporting communism by my grandmother on facebook so pretty sure i'm doing good things
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@tiff Where was I transphobic ?
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@drinkingpony deadnaming a trans person is transphobic
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@scribus my uncle just writes poetry about his dead wife, not sure which i prefer on my tl at this point lol
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@tiff Alright, 3 things.
1. I could not care less about the guy. or the woman that he ultimately became. BUT I do know that the whole instance is making my life harder
2. Being rich and famous makes your life a whole lot easier. It is a topic that comes up so many times in support groups it spins my head. Outside of these support groups you have people litterally trying to defend ppl position without it being needed or trying to do stuff just to please ppl, Such as that rant I did about 9 months ago about a "private toilet"... Noone was asking for that, and it was ultimately nullified.
3. Even with my justified near hatred for the person, it was ultimately more brave of the person that started the transition than of the person who has already transitioned. Being "Born Again" as a new person is being taken much more literally over here. That way you can more easily talk about past selves to boot.
I will however TRY to abide by "deadnaming rules". Does not mean I know her name tho.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony tiff literally said the name
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@drinkingpony you're continuing to misgender her in your first point, i literally do not care about any of what you just said. just respect people's identities and pronouns, whether you hate them or not. it's not difficult
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@scribus I am sorry but I do not really agree with your depressing version of the LGBTQ's history.
But you did save me the trouble of figuring out her new name, so thank you.
I do have a funny question for you though. What if I somehow got an Olympic medal and then uploaded my brain into a computer and lived forever. Would that mean that you got the rights to brag about it forever aswell ? Someone in my group came up with that one as a way to challenge mortality in a shrodinger's box kinda way. I do not think it is supposed to be answerred outright. But it does present a direct problem. Does our consciousness matter over our body, or the body over consciousness, and which one carries the 'name' ?
So who won those olympic medals ? Why must you dead-think someone ?
And I just learned what Deadnaming is.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@tiff
> i literally do not care about any of what you just said.
I do not remember if I apologized since it went through a couple re-writes. But if I did that means you did not read it ? What a horrible horrible way to have a conversation.
Heck, I do not even know what to do anymore.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony literally just stop denying trans people their identity just because you don't like them
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@tiff I did not even knew the up to date name untill a couple of minutes ago.
What is next ? Me being upset at you for not getting my pronouns right ?Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
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@drinkingpony you brought her up in response to a post about queer identity unprompted and referred to her by a name she no longer uses and should take a modicum of effort to find, why bring her up at all if you knew nothing about her
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@drinkingpony also yeah if i refer to you in a way that makes you uncomfortable then you have every right to correct me, and then i would promptly strive to improve
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@mrmattimation Well go learn my prounouns then, biggot.
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@drinkingpony what are your pronouns
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@tiff Really, you truely want to know why ? Because [enter pronoun here] is being named ( aparently deadnamed ) quite a lot in both support groups AND by people in my day to day life as a proud example of how [enter pronoun here] is brave for doing what that person is doing.
If you have any idea how much people I have seen that either lack the discipline or the money to carry forth transitioning all the way then you would hate [enter pronoun here] probably just as much as I do.
In terms of statue, its an idol thing, everyone with aspirations want to be like the idol, and the failure rate is too damn high and actually leads to suicide in quite a few people I knew personally.
And at this point I am not even sure which name I remember of those people and it is seriously messing with my mind ever since I learned what "deadnaming" is.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@mrmattimation From the things I just read about deadnaming, Asking for someones pronouns is offensive.
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@drinkingpony just say "she" it's not hard. i informed you of your mistake and you're going out of your way to not correct yourself. there's no esoteric quality to trans identity, people are more than happy to tell you their pronouns if they don't make them known by default.
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@drinkingpony Gender and sexuality are completed different things. Perhaps in a some post singularity society with people who have had years of transcendental existence physical sex will be less significant, but that is a moot point. And yes, you can still brag about mortal physically accomplishments because it takes time, practice, motivation, sacrifice and dedication to win an Olympic medal, worthy of praise.
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@tiff
> i informed you of your mistake and you're going out of your way to not correct yourself.
I said sorry and I said that I'll try better so I will not deadname anyone ever again.
That somehow does not count ? Then what does ?
> there's no esoteric quality to trans identity,
Yet at the same time they have a tough history, somehow.
> people are more than happy to tell you their pronouns if they don't make them known by default.
Yet you just had to tell me that Caitlyn's pronoun is she.
You see the disconnect here ?Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony you didn't say sorry, you started deflecting. you deadnamed her in your alleged apology post. you say trans people haven't had a hard history yet bring up suicide statistics. i assumed you knew (and chose to ignore) her name and pronouns because you brought her up in conversation like you knew who she was, like how most people only mention things in conversation if they know what they're talking about.
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@drinkingpony If it is blatantly obvious what pronoun ought to be used, and you intentionally don't use it, fluffle yes, it's offensive. There are certainly offensive ways to go about asking someone when it isn't obvious.
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@tiff
> you didn't say sorry
I am very sorry for deadnaming someone, it was wrong of me, and even though I did not know it was, I should not have done it. I have read up on it and it is a very very bad thing, especially in the USA. I will do my utmost best to never do it again. and I am also sorry that it got lost in the soup of rewriting.
> you say trans people haven't had a hard history yet bring up suicide statistics.
While terrible, there is not somehting like the KKK for LGBT people that I know of. or a targeted genocide. The terrible things that happen around LGBT places are usually carried by the media like they are huge things and how we should support the LGBT members that you know IRL.
On the other hand, the way you use suicide statistics as a way of measuring history. Diabetes would like to get in on history. Which just does not sit right with me.
> i assumed you knew
I did hear that name before, but only on SouthPark, I thought it was a mockery. Again, my apologies.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony http://rainbowdash.net/url/875380 hate crimes in general, and especially hate crimes targeting LGBTQ in United States have been rising significantly in the past few years. How often are people attacked or killed in 2019 for being black?
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@oracle I thought it was ALWAYS offensive to ask.
This is why I guess I am having such a hard time wrapping my head around it, there are multiple sources claiming different things, minor differences sure, but still different.
Language barrier & differences in social interaction are not really helping either.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony There are 7.7 Billion people struggling in some way with life right now. You're bound to get different opinions and information. When it comes right down to it, when you remember that we're all struggling and we're all human, when you have genuine love and compassion for people, you're not going to offend because it's not your intention. I don't think people are getting mad at you here for what you said, per se, but because you are apathetic to some degree towards people like us and what we go through. I'm honestly not offended, I just wish you understood this. You're better than this
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@oracle Why does this list begin in the 1980's ? and is there a list for other types of LGBT people, like Transvestites. I mean it IS blood-chilling to even think about but human population has DOUBLED since 1980 ( more or less ) and human interaction has gone through the roof compared to back then thanks to things like the internet and hookup apps and easier transportation.
Not to mention that in the 1980's you probably had to explain to someone what trans was just like how I had to explain what pokemons were in 1999. There probably were a lot more people for that wiki list if the everyman knew what trans meant or was back then.
Do not get me wrong, things like that should STOP. People deserve to live, even if some people hate other people. But if I hear less about Vanessa Campos as I do about Tayvon Martin. And one of those things almost happened next door for crying out loud. then I am going to question the statistics that can be over easily inferred.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@oracle I just try to live my life by some easy rules.
1. Try not to be a cherry
2. If you are not sure about somehting, think it over ( which means rewriting things like forum posts a whole lot, if I had any currency for every time I did that I would be a millionaire by now )
3. Smile
4. Try not to dwell on the bad things that happen, and they do happen, can not be avoided
5. Life will surprise you
6. Do not be a pessimist.
Only I am affected by 2 - 6. But for number 1. If someone goes "Hey you are being a cherry right now" I get flustered, unnerved, ruffled, and sometimes almost visually upset. Because that is the LAST thing I want to be.
I hope that makes sense.
( Also, just because I try not to be a cherry does not mean I do not butt heads sometimes. Matt can tell you all about that I guess. I mostly try to joke it over while going to my point )Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony saying that LGBTQ+ oppression is insignificant because there's "no KKK equivalent" is ridiculous. just because it doesn't have a convenient name doesn't mean it isn't happening (not to mention that racism doesn't start and end with KKK). it's punishable by death in some countries. people all over the world are still abused verbally and physically if they're even thought to be gay. the (largely conservative-owned, at least here) media has something to do with it of course, but it's a problem on a social level too. i have no idea what that diabetes comment has to do with anything. if trans people and people elsewhere in the community had a better support system and weren't constantly getting discriminated against and having their lives and feelings invalidated, these statistics (which have seen arise amongst young people regardless, by the way) wouldn't be as bad as they are.
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@tiff LGBTQ Plus? Where did the plus suddenly come from? Regardless, if you think I am saying that their opression is insignificant because there is no KKK then you are just LOOKING for a problem without a name.
History has shown us again and again that once there is a real problem it will receive a convenient name. How else are you going to talk about it ?
There are MANY things punishable by death in some countries, that does not mean that any of it is ohkay. But the moment it alligns or opposes what you think or believe in is not the moment to talk about it. You can not solve it. I can only say that I agree or disagree.
Violence is bad. That is my statement. Yet in the same breath you seem to be happy to send TERF's to the guillotine ? I am having a hard time to take any of that seriously, I guess I just have to choose you were joking. Do you think that looks well to the outside ? How is anyone to judge that ? I'll tell you what though, that is not tolerance. Ask Giovanni GentileJonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@tiff The diabetes comment is rather simple. If you want to put people down in the history books because they had a hard life because their self-termination statistics are too high then too must we apply this to people who have crippling diabetes but choose to continue to walk the path of the fast food. Which is the wrong way to approach getting into the history books.
If you have a problem and can not handle it alone, seek out help. There are more than enough ways means and places to find it.
All those people who died because they told themselves that they were too proud to seek out help, it breaks my heart.
"But you do not take your own life because you are trans" ofcourse not, but there are way too many people who start to walk the walk unprepared and find themselves in between a rock and a hard place eventually where suicide starts to seem like an acceptable step. That goes for both trans people and diabetic people whom eat themselves to death, they need help.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony sorry but i'm really caught up on "queer oppression isn't real because there isn't a single semantic referent for it". also LGBTQ+ is a pretty widely established term of inclusion. you've demonstrated time and time again in this thread that you have no idea about anything regarding queer identity politics, the smart thing to do is admit that and shut up
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@tiff sorry but I am not taking the blame on something you thought I implied, that is on you. At least you would agree with me that the big bad boogeyman should have a name.
As I have clearly demonstrated, I know not enough about this whole lingo thing to actually be confused when at one moment we are talking about LGBT and the next about LGBTQ and after that about LGBTQ+. Next up we are talking about the LGBTQQIP2SAA ( and no I did not make that acronym up )
So yeah, I should deffinatly shut up right ? I might actually do more damage trying to understand what is what and say the wrong thing. It is not like you actually want to share ideas and thoughts and live in corcord or harmony with one another.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony I told you how to conduct yourself and then you doubled down on your refusal to gender a trans person properly
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@drinkingpony OK, look asshole - I've been biting my tongue for days. Drop it, now. You are clearly antagonistic at this point. Nobody keeps falling for bad-faith, "Well, I'm *sorry* but now what about *my feelings* since you're mad at me?" pseudo-apologies forever. You have zero interest in your own espoused "sharing ideas and thoughts" or "living in concord or harmony." You demonstrate this every time you reply with a snarky rejoinder, an apples-to-celery piece of whataboutism, or outright refusal to comply with a basic request for respect. You're in the wrong, both subjectively and objectively. So, I got a question - are you stupid, or trolling? Because you've disproved any other interpretation.
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@scribus OK... @drinkingpony, I regret "asshole," and I'm sorry for saying that. And, looking back, I may or may not have been able to choose a more moderate tone. But I stand by the original points. You've been told how and why it's upsetting, and given avenues of further research. And you just keep plowing ahead. I genuinely suspect some sealion-ing is at play, and I can only guess at any motivations. But the endless games of "Well, just explain better and I'll respect it" stop being cute at about kindergarten ("Why? Why? Why? Why?"); that's why kids are shipped off to school to be dealt with.
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@scribus Psh, really ? I do not believe for one second that any proverbial key to any castle is to be found around here now. Probably never even was to the first place. I am a staunch believer that there are no people actively hating one another, just people who have a misunderstanding of somekind. What if I were to declare the D word to be just as offensive as the N word ? You would be confused as to what I even mean since you obviously never heard of it. Even though, I think it should be fairly obvious, look at my name FGS. But, you never asked. You only assumed. Which is why we are having a breakdown of comminucation in a way.
Asking why is a bad thing tho [ makes universal sign language symbol for coocoo ]
Have fun condoning calling out for the death of TERFS and share apple recipes on Tories. Because democracy is only good when it serves your own echo chamber, right ? I'd quote Matthew 7:5 at you but you would probably just use that to call me a Conservative or something.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
@drinkingpony Beautiful, hypocritical assumption. I'm not calling for death to TERFS or Torries. And you have been far too antagonistic to be "just askin'." And feel free to quote scripture, I use it myself. It's a better reference than Dewey! http://rainbowdash.net/attachment/875386
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@scribus "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani ?"
Oh I tell you why. While not calling for the death of groups you do not agree with directly you certainly do not seem to be too keen on calling it out either.
In your other post you talk about those you deem worthy of execution. Worthy ? ... WORTHY ! Face it. You became just as bad as the people you deem worthy of disrespect or worse. May that mark upon your skin be forever be a reminder of the person you became you swore you did not want to be.
Everyone who thinks I am an asshole should realize something. Do it ! I will happily martyr myself in your memories and off of this platform. The next time something bad happens or the 'wrong' person gets elected I want you all to blame me. Scribus can quote Romans 2:1 and you can all rest assured that everyone is safe as you did the right thing by closing yourself off from answering questions and using shaming tactics to establish dominance and promote group-think.Jonathan Chouinard likes this. -
The irony is lost on this one.
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