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@yuri I wish Americans were less stupid. I mean, how can you call yourself "land of freedom and equality" but still oppose gay marriage? I'm proud that my country was the first one to legalize gay marriage. The Netherlands is generally really open and quickly accepting.
Saturday, 03-Mar-12 21:53:08 UTC from Choqok- chaosmagic likes this.
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@yuri I believe Belgium is legal in the Netherlands, yes.
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@pony j/k
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@yuri Some soft-drugs are legal in the Netherlands, yes. I believe weed is included, though I am not sure. They are planning on new legislation regarding that though.
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@omni I find it hillarious that the goverments refuse to legalise soft drugs, yet goes bat-papayas crazy when someone tries to ban tobbaco and alchool
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@zennx I think the fact that soft drugs are legal is good. If you make something legal to get less crimes will be commited to get it (including murder, for example). I don't think we should take it further and legalize hard drugs though, those cause too much issues. But from what I've heard soft drugs are comparible to tobacco and alcohol so I'm not too worried about it. It's mostly in Amsterdam anyway, where I don't live.
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@omni Actually the effects of weed are much weaker then alchool's, you never hear bad stories about weed, (exept that lame "It's a gateway drug" one), you hear good things like "Timmy got his appetite back even tho he's getting treatment for cancer" or "Tom is like super nice now"
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@omni Ohmygawsh! You're so liberal right now.. I'm wondering if I sound like that sometimes. I oppose gay marriage, but I don't bring it up in conersation because of the controversy. I'm all for bending rules.. just not changing them entirely until they no longer exist.
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@omni #Disclaimer - that's not all of us.
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@pony May I ask why you are against it? Not trying to be rude, but I've only heard lame reasons like "if we approve this then we have to approve marriage with animals, buildings and polygamy as well". And are you against gay marriage completely or only in church?
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@imhenrytheiixiam I know, I have some truly smart American friends. The majority seems to be like that though, for whatever reason. Sorry, should choose my words more carefully there.
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@omni That's alright, I wasn't upset. :p
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@omni It's so amusing seeing you humans talk a8out how humans in some regions are more foolish than others. Isn't it o8vious 8y now that there are dum8 humans infested everywhere in your dum8 human filled world?
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@imhenrytheiixiam Oh so you will end her quickly then? jk.
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@firestormdangerdash Nah, I end 'em quickly when I am angry - just lose it, man, before I know it... j/k
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@omni If anypony was rude, it was me with my reaction. I also don't mean to be rude... I oppose gay marriage because i oppose the government sanctioning of homosexual practice. Above all it's an issue of faith for me (which is intertwined with religion in my case, but religion still remains as a separate issue to me). Secondly it's an issue of religion. Thirdly it's a moral issue. And after all of these, my opposition to gay marriage is a social, political, and, lastly, biological issue.
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@omni I'd be happy to attempt to explain/discuss any part of my opinion.
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@pony Ah, faith and religion. Those always are touchy subjects and enough for me to know that continuing this discussion won't make any of us convince the other otherwise. Feel free to state what you think is wrong with it in more detail if you would wish to do so, I will listen and respect your opinion, as it is your right to have one.
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@omni I greatly appreciate your openness!
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@omni (Hay! This is the internet! That should have been a poorly-typed attempt at a scathing accusation of latent homosexual urges!)
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@brony001 8LUH!
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@pony You oppose gay marriage? Please, by all means, elaborate on that one.
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@ceruleanspark @omni While there's some compelling evidence, many interesting points, and plenty of speculation about the latter reasons I listed, I would change my opinion altogether, in light of my life experience and personal preferences, if it weren't for my faith. In short, I have a personal relationship with our divine creator, one which can be had by anypony willing to sacrifice what's necessary, and it is that relationship which has allowed me to communicate with Him and be convinced that gay marriage in the U.S. (and not anywhere else as far as I know), at the present time (and not any other time as far as I know), is something that I'm commanded to oppose politically (not any other way as far as I know).
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@pony I know I might sound far too specific here, but I feel I should clarify that that is the conviction my /faith/, and in some part my religion, has brought me. Though my stance on gay marriage under any other circumstance might change, however unlikely that may be, I'll sooner forsake everything precious to me before I loose my conviction in the point I specified previously.
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@ceruleanspark Marriage is pretty much a union between two (or sometimes more) people. The usual problem in this kind of discussion is that both sides pretty much try not to understand the other! Marriage is usually associated as a religious thing. This is NOT to say that marriage belongs to religion but that it IS a part of religion. The main difference civil union and marriage (though these are just terms) is that one is recognized by a religion and one is recognized by a government. It is not fair to ask a religion to recognize something that they do not believe in, just as it is not fair to ask gay people not to be together. Gay people have the right to be together and get married (or civil union or whatever you want to call it, it’s all the same) but should not expect religions, where gay relationships are not allowed, to recognized their union as something that is strictly defined as something else in their religion. Boom elaboration!
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@starlightbolt Is this when i should say i an Atheist?
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@pony That's quite interesting. Please excuse me if I am asking stupid questions seeing as I'm uneducated regarding define communication, but I was wondering if you have been told a reason why to oppose and why only in America and nowhere else?
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@rozeluck Agnostic is the way to go. Saying with absolution that there is no god is just as ignorant as saying with absolution that God does exist. I personally find Atheist even more preachy and annoying than religious people. It's like they think they've figured out something in there dumb little brain, and that they are smarter than other people. But the shear fact that they have decided that they KNOW the UNKNOWABLE proves how ignorant they really are! Religious people at least acknowledge that their religion is based on faith.
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@starlightbolt ohh I love this argument! and i completely agree with everything you just said
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@purplephish20 Thank you :)
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@starlightbolt I agree on this. It's impossible to objectively prove the existence of a deity, but at the same time it's impossible to disprove it. My view is that it's possible but not probably, though I can accept people who hold different views so long as they don't try to force them upon me
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@starlightbolt Guess that makes sense. I personally believe there is something more, but I do not believe any known religions are correct as, as you said, it's impossible to know the unknowable
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@starlightbolt im not as you describe it there i think there is something between heaven and earth but what i dont know i dont believe in a god but i dont say there dosnt exist a god
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@omni My current view is that, I feel it is less likely that there is a divine creator, so for right now I do not believe in one, but I sure hope there is one. :)
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@starlightbolt I fully agree, though I wonder what his/her/its explanation will be for all the sorting in this world
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@omni *suffering
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@omni Hopefully something along the lines of "just for the LuLz"
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@starlightbolt Then I want to torture this divine creature. I deserve some fun as well for all my suffering...
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@omni good luck torturing the possibly, infinitely powerful entity.
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@starlightbolt If he/she/it won't die, I can torture him/her/it for longer ~
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@omni Those are the questions I would ask as well. My personal communication with God is outlined as follows: 1.) Start with a question having drawn no definite conclusion on my own. 2.) Gather information from the most relevant reliable resources I have available. 3.) Synthesize the information I've collected and figure out how it might apply to my own actions/lifestyle. 4.) Pray sincerely with the honest intention of accepting God's will, whatever it may be, and ask whether the actions/lifestyle changes I've considered are His will. [Note: Prayer has a specific common form in my practice, but may vary and still be effective. I'll explain if you're interested.] 5.) Wait for an answer to come by the Holy Ghost. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5%3A22-23&version=NIV
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@pony My answers come in the form of powerful emotional responses in line with that verse I linked to. When such a response does come, I always meditate over the question again just to make sure that the Holy Ghost/ Spirit's influence remains as a way to confirm that my thoughts are correct. If no feeling comes then I simply have no answer and I carry on with life as usual
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@pony I wouldn't be able to speak to him/her/it... I'm afraid of a divine creature. I may live my life as a pet, leaving myself vulnerable to the one I trust, but I still live in constant fear. What if what I think is wrong? What if I get orders I really can't accept (like leaving my owner or eating meat)? I would go completely insane and my suicidal urges would get completely out of control. I'm not so much afraid of ending my own life, as I am worthless anyway, but I won't be able to stand hurting my owner. Ugh, sorry for that, I guess I overreacted somewhat but it should explain my fear x.x
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@omni But it is unlikely you will be able to torture, or do anything to it against it's will, to begin with.
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@pony And that is how I got the aswer that I should oppose gay marriage under the conditions I specified.. In this particular case, my information came from resources that I had already proved my the same mode of communication that I just explained, namely, scripture and modern revelation (the prophet and the apostles of my church).
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@omni It would appear that you seem to have the best qualities of a divine messenger.
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@pony I see. So, simply put, you're merely opposing gay marriage because your God told you to do so, not for any personal reason?
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@omni For what it's worth, God sees us as his literal spiritual children, and, as the scripture goes, "God is love," and therefore cannot be anything that opposes love. He/she/it wouldn't ask you to do anything that would harm you in the long run, including making you so emotionally unstable you might commit suicide
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@pony Your god maybe.
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@starlightbolt I only listen to my owner, as she is the one I trust completely. If God may wish to speak to me, he/she/it will have to contact my owner, whatever it may be. I'd rather end my life than taking instructions from anyone else than her. If you promise to be loyal like I did, that promise should be kept under all circumstances.
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@omni You've got it! Now don't get me wrong. I'm not unintelligent. In fact, I have it on good authority that God wants us all to use our brains. I have researched the topic of gay marriage from every side I could conceive and i have formed strong opinions and put together what might be called reasons that I should oppose it, but in the end, I'm fallible and my understanding is limited, so I've sought divine guidance to know how to act.
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@starlightbolt ;)
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@pony It might have been less offensive to just flip a coin.
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@ceruleanspark What's offensive about that?
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@ceruleanspark I think I'm going to get a coin made that has "Republican" and "Democrat" on the two sides; seems to be the way elections go here, anyway.
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@omni cool story
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@starlightbolt "God told me to discriminate against gays" is more offensive than "Random chance dictates that I should discriminate against gays" because entropy is a thing that at least demonstrably exists.
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@imhenrytheiixiam I have a piece of stainless steel here about the size of a silver dollar with Yes written on one side and No on the other, it has proven to be most useful.
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@pony I can see that you're a smart person due to the way you talk, listen and formulate your replies. About God seeing us as children and not wanting us to feel bad, I guess that means I shall assume that all negative things I've been through aren't his/her/its doing but the one of the humans around me? And, not meant rude, if God is love as you say, why would he oppose to gay marriage, seeing as those people love each other as well? May it merely be a case of "the American people aren't ready for it yet"?
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@colfax I did use an Othello chip as a d2 for a while, but it broke at some point, somehow.
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@ceruleanspark Taking offense is a response I'm used to. Though I certainly don't relish it, it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to find strength and security in my faith. Also, I still truly love everypony who believes and lives contrary to what I've accepted as truth. I'm an idiot and sometimes get irritated with ponies I argue with, but I try to not take insults personally when they come. I don't mean you've insulted me of course, but I've been called bigot on more than one occasion.
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@imhenrytheiixiam @colfax I carry a coin with me at all times, Much Like Harvey Dent. Only difference is mine isn't double headed.
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@ceruleanspark I still don't see wants offensive about it haha. Try not to look for something to be offended about maybe? :\
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@carcino I tend to. But then it falls out of my pocket in the laundry hamper and I lose it for months at a time.
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@imhenrytheiixiam I also have a coin flip app on my phone.
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@carcino I have the two-faced coin that came with the action figure from the Batman Forever line.
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@carcino I used to have a Bit from TRON for that.
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@starlightbolt Discriminating against people based on their preferred configuration of interlocked genitals IS offensive.
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@starlightbolt Hey, this is weird but is there Amy way that I would be able to talk to Roommate regularly?
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@colfax I.have that but It's not open.
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@imhenrytheiixiam Lol wut
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@imhenrytheiixiam a d2 you say? Are you perhaps a fellow D&D player?
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@carcino Yeah, there was an app for that. You tap the screen and it either goes yellow and diamondy and says "YES" or red and spikey for "NO." And sometimes it goes "NONONONONONONONO."
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@imhenrytheiixiam Interesting. Sounds like I could kill some time with it.
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@kimren I have played. My group fell apart and I never really found another one, and my schedule isn't as open as it used to be, but I enjoy it. Not that into 4th Edition, though... Too simple for me.
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@imhenrytheiixiam Bit? From Tron?
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@ceruleanspark Eeyup.
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@imhenrytheiixiam we should make a pony version where it sometimes says 'yesyesyesyesyesyes' in the style of Twilight
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@carcino Neither was mine till the box got smashed in storage.
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@trister Advice pony app!
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@imhenrytheiixiam indeed, and the no side could be pinkie's 'nonononono' from when RD was about to prank fluttershy... it's the perfect plan... Ponies always give great advice
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@imhenrytheiixiam Understandable. I just got into it late last year, so 4e is all I know. To be fair, nobody in my group had played before, so 4e was probably a good idea for us.
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@omni More great questions. This goes into the meaning of our existence, the necessity for opposition, and other important issues, but, in the interest of trying to keep things brief... strike that.. we're way beyond 'brief.' ... Simply put, it's my conviction that God has given us our genders deliberately and with a definite plan for our happiness, and that plan includes a man and woman procreating. I don't see how I can avoid linking this any longer: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,161-1-11-1,FF.html
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@trister I wonder how legal weed got to ponies saying yeysyesyyesyyeyxs or nonononononiononon
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@zimzap well in some countries it's illegal, so you have to say nonononono, but in others it's legal, so you can say yesyesyesyes, it's that simple
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@trister ah
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@pony I apologize for not reading that now, it's 1 am, lying in bed, tired and starting to get unstable but just a few more questions: 1. What about a male + female asexual couple (like me and my owner) 2. Quickly glancing over the text you send, would a more "feminine" man taking care of the kids instead of the woman be an issue? 3. Does this mean you are also against anti-conception as they prevent the couple from fulfilling this task? 4. Do you consider each straight couple capable of taking care of children, seeing as it's their task, no matter their mental state? 5. What about gay couple adopting children? Is there anything wrong with that?
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@omni I didn't really answer your question.. Let me try again. As far as I understand, God has set spiritual laws in place to chastise us for engaging in homosexual practice (not simply homosexual attraction) as well as extramarital sex. Whether or not society accepts fornication, we suffer spiritually by fornicating. As confusing as it is sometimes, I believe sexual relationships and loving relationships in general are not the same. What's more, God is the kind of Love that is completely selfless, which excludes lust. It's true that sex is part of any healthy loving marriage, and the self-gratification involved in sex is not evil by any means, but my conviction stops there. I'm afraid I'm too feeble to venture any further into the topic of sex vs. love or I'll risk saying something that misleads. I can recommend individuals who have better experience than I do who may be able to answer your questions more fully.
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@pony It's funny because if it turns out god doesn't exist you'll have devoted a large chunk of your life to spreading misery to groups of demonstrably real, extant people for basically no reason.
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@ceruleanspark equally funny is the fact that if God does exist we're burning in hell for all eternity. If there's nothing afterwards then there's nowhere for @pony to be in which he will regret his life. Pretty interesting system
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@trister I tend to prioritise the wellbeing of people whom I know exist over following the dictats of a hypothetical superbeing. If being nice to everyone isn't enough for him, then to papayas that guy. Any heaven reserved solely for people who "hated all the right people" isn't really a heaven I want a part of anyway.
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@ceruleanspark Dear lord.
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@pony I do have one more remark but it seems that if you would still want to continue we should move it to private messaging due to the amount of people getting upset over this, to me interesting, discussion. I should also go to sleep and therefore want to wish you, together with all other ponies here, a goodnight.
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@ceruleanspark religion does not always mean hatred. Just because someone doesn't agree with something doesn't mean they will definitely condemn people who practice it.
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@flaxx a rather ironic choice of words considering the subject matter
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@omni goodnight! sleep well!
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@trister I was referring to @ceruleanspark because of what he just said.
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@trister It adds to the lulz.
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@trister I am not sure in what way saying "Homosexuals will suffer infinitely in hell for all eternity" isn't hatred.
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@flaxx yeah, I know, but I'm assuming it was used as an exclamation as opposed to the beginning of a prayer, thus making it ironic because the subject matter is one of religion, and 'dear lord' is rooted in religion
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@ceruleanspark I subscribe to the gospel of Billy Joel "I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun."
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@omni That's fine. Feel free to peruse it at your leisure. I just didn't want to end up quotin/paraphrasing the entire thing and risk leaving out something important or explaining it poorly 1.) While sexual 'misconduct' is not the only way to offend God, there's nothing inherently wrong with any given asexual mixed-gender couple. 2.) I'm a more feminine man and I'd love to take care of the kids, but, as contrary as that may be to my nature, I accept that the satisfaction I'll receive from the role God has given me as a provider will be much greater than if I were to stay home with the kids and let my wife (who would earn more than me with her education, btw) be our provider. In some situations it's necessary to break those roles. The document I liked to doesn't clarify those conditions and I also lack an answer unfortunately. If we're uncertain, God can give us personal guidance by the way I stated a while ago.
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@trister Oh, I understand how it is ironic, and it was intended. I just thought I'd state that.
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@omni Let's do this my driect message. certainly.
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@ceruleanspark and I'm sure every member of every religion both believes and asserts that view to everyone they meet every day, because, you know, people aren't different in the slightest.
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@flaxx needless confusion on both sides! what a to-do!
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@trister Hey, if you're gonna let the people who do speak for you, then you need to be prepared to be judged based on the things they say.
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@trister Welp, as the (not very) old saying goes, "If I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't be Flaxx!"
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@ceruleanspark that doesn't rally work, I don't think everyone in religion always agrees with everything their leaders say or do, just the same as in a political sense. But if a person believes in a certain religion they aren't going to quit based upon what certain people say, especially not when there is some supposed 'higher power' involved
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@flaxx hm, I like that saying
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@omni Last post to answer the remainder of your questions... 3.) I'm not against anti-conception including contraceptives. I believe birth-control has it's time and place and can be used to abuse. 4.) Not all married straight couples make suitable parents. 5.) I have no conviction for or against gay adoption, only /for/ the raising of children by 'righteous' heterosexual married couples. Again, there are circumstances where a righteous married couple is not available. As one who was raised in a gay home by my mother and her partners, I'm undecided.
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@pony Take it private.
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@colfax Done. That was it.
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@colfax I was kind of put off you didn't give any reason for your order to make our conversation private... I've been ignoring every post not directed at me and I expect there's been plenty of drama about a perfectly reasonable conversation, but you could at least explain your concern to the ones you're restricting.
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@pony It's simple, he always sends problematic topics to private to avoid flamewars.
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@nerthos he didn't do so in a polite manner.
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@pony Actually, everything he said on the public timeline related to the demand to take it to Direct Messages was rather courteous.
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@pony Hey, colfax is like that xD it's rough, but it works.
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@chiefanchor It's good to have an outside perspective.. I'm probably being overly sensitive. It's not the first time I've been censored for discussing religion in a completely inoffensive manner. I still feel the order could have been delivered more courteously and less dictatorially. Such is common courtesy where I come from.
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@pony It's done because it's such a quick subject to get sore and argumentative, that's all.
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@chiefanchor Certainly. I don't doubt the necessity, but I've experienced more courteous moderation.